C5 X7 Tourer Tyres
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! CC1701's Avatar
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    Default C5 X7 Tourer Tyres

    Hi All,
    Have decided to replace the tyres on our local C5 X7 Tourer 3.0 HDi (exclusive).
    Wheel size is is 245/45-18. (grr, licorice strap tyres)

    I've already read the many other threads on C5 X7 tyres but am looking for comments on 2 specific tyre options.

    Currently running Pirelli Dragon Sports. Pretty good tyres; steer well, grip good - wet and dry, but a little noisy for me on our chip surfaced roads and my hearing is somewhat less than perfect.

    So, want to replace them with something a little softer, smoother and especially quieter. Being a tourer its noisier than a sedan and i can't hear the family in the back on some road surfaces .... Hmmm, wait, wait! This could be a good thing at times :-) - haha

    Am Very picky about tyres and want Everything; - Grip - wet and dry. Traction - longitudinal, lateral, braking, accelerating. Accurate steering. Exceptional Braking performance - in any conditions. A quiet, smooth, peaceful, controlled, perfect ride.

    Doughiness, float, disconnection, instability, hesitation, sluggishness is not acceptable from tyres.
    Don't do too many miles, so don't care about the wear rate, 40k km will last us a hundred years.

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    Have done the basic research and come down to 2 choices, both Michelins:

    Pilot Sport 4 [PS4] or Primacy 4 [P4]

    The PS4 is only available in 245/45-18, where as there is an option for a 50 series in the Primacy for more ride comfort.
    Michelin specs say there is only 1 db difference in noise between them 69 (P4) vrs 70 (PS4). Grip and much else seems the same.
    The PS4 consistently rates extremely well, as does the P4. However, there are the occasional comments that the P4's can be doughy, disconnected and have a sense of instability about them, much like a Primacy 3.
    Have driven other C5's V6 & I4 HDi, both with Primacy 3's, and they are not to my liking.

    Does anyone have either the Pilot Sport 4 or Primacy 4 on their car and might like to comment?

    The Pirelli's are still very good tyres and have a lot of tread left, I'm just Very picky.

    They'll be some cheap used Pirelli Dragon Sports, 245/45-18, available soon if anyone wants them.

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    Only 1 dB is quite a sound energy reduction. Halving it (very unlikely) would reduce it by 3 dB.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for your input.
    Every db of noise reduction is going to be noticeable overall inside the cabin. "All the better to hear them with". As such my dilemma, I want Quiet, grip, and stability. The P4 could/might feel less stable and purposeful but be noticeably quieter than the PS4's - what to do?
    To make matters worse, the P4's are about $100 per corner more than the PS4's.

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    There was a discussion on C5 tyres at http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/cit...res-again.html. PS4s were eventually purchased.

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    thanks, it was a good thread to read, very imformative.
    he seems like he's happy with the PS4's even if only on the front.
    have had PS3 & 4's on other cars and they are just great tyres, very difficult to fault.
    am leaning to the PS4's but wondering if the Primacy 4 is a reasonable alternative, mostly for better ride comfort and noise.
    that said the PS3 & 4's ride remarkably well for a high performance tyre and are extremely quiet on all surfaces.
    but, every db will help, and a smoother ride is better as long as the car doesn't float.
    perhaps someone with P4's can give their experience.

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    Two issues: tyre size & tyre type:

    The 50 series tyre which is equal in circumference to the 245/45 is 225/50. The main ride-relevant dimension is sidewall height & there's not enough difference to fuss about (approx. 2%). I'd stay with 245/45.

    So, within that, what are your options?

    On all other listed criteria but noise, a short list of 3 suggests itself: Pirelli's PZ4 PZero, Michelin's PilotSports4 & Continental's PremiumContact6. But with noise reduction as a salient criterion of choice, the PS4 wins.

    See: 2018 AMS Summer UHP Tyre Test - Tyre Reviews

    But there is a "wild card" also.

    Consider Bridgestone's Potenza RE003. Much more aggressively sporty-treaded than any of the above, one might fear noise but noise is primarily a matter of trapped air trying to escape & a busily siped & channelled tread pattern is usually noisier than a less busy one. The RE003 is not busy. It's also wet/dry grippy, responsive & benign at the limit. It'll wear more quickly than the above 3 but that is not an important issue for you.

    I have (repeatedly) fitted these to a daughter's & my wife's Foresters (in 215/60-16). Not noisy.

    My main motivation for mentioning the RE003 is price. The (currently discounted) PS4 is (by reference to Jax's online prices) $204. With an even better discount deal, the RE003 is $176.

    The price-insensitive choice is the PS4 but the RE003 is very good (I rather like my wife & daughter & am fussy about tyres) & although not as good as the PS4, it's not far off &, for reference, would notably surpass the Dragon, especially in the wet.

    cheers! Peter

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    An an aside, the Primacy 4 has a tread pattern which, contrary to common current practice, has vertical walls on the tread elements, not sloping, truncated pyramid, style ones. The reason for the latter is tread block stability, which manifests itself as crisper steering response.
    Fine but such sloping walls mean that as the tread wears, the diminution of channel volume is not linear & thus resistance to aquaplaning in deep water conditions is also not diminished in a linear way with wear.

    Michelin has chosen to keep the diminution linear for greater consistency of wet performance as the tyre wears & accepts that the trade-off for that is a "squirminess" in response when the tread blocks are still new or newish.

    I think that there are better design solutions to the above competing demands but that's another story.

    cheers! Peter

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    thanks peter, you've given me the piece of the puzzle that was missing in regards to the P4's. As per the first post, they rate so well yet there are a few that mention, what you correctly describe as "squirminess". Not a characteristic I'm looking for.
    Will pay a minor noise price to have precision.
    Great and simple description of how they use design elements in tyres. Thanks. Much appreciated.
    P4's are also available in 235/50-18 which would give 7 extra mm of sidewall height. With modern licorice strap tyres, every bit helps for comfort.

    no doubt the P4 is a really good tyre, by all reviews. However, PS4's it'll be.
    will post up a quick review once they are fitted and have a few kilcks on them

    Thanks for the suggestion of the RE003. Have had them on other cars and found the nervousness on initial turn not to my liking.
    For reference, we have HTR Z III's (another sumitomo/bridgestone product) on the other C5, which are really nice. However, they are not really suited to here because they are noisy on chip surfaced roads, and slap over joints (and maybe a wee bit stiff for the C5).

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    I was going to fit Primacy tyres, for the reasons you outlined, but they were out of stock at the time. Have found the PS4's a little noisy on anything other than fine bitumen surfaces. May be due in part to running 38+ in the front. The previous PS3's scrubbed the shoulders running recommended pressures.

    In another thread, I speculated that noise from PS4’s might arise from very wide (and varying) groove size (see below). Seems to accord with one of Michelins explanations for Primacy’s quietness ‘The total groove width is always the same, making it effective in reducing the tread pattern noise’ https://www.jaxtyres.com.au/michelin-primacy-lc-tyre

    PS4.JPG

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    thanks for your input, especially in regard to the noise on not super smooth surfaces.
    I agree that the PS4 wide, deep grooves and widely spaced shoulder strakes contribute to the grip, directional stability and drainage but will probably result in higher noise on anything but smooth surfaces. The smaller grooves and more frequent shoulder strakes of the P4's should still drain pretty well and reduce noise.
    Wear isn't a factor for us, we don't do many klicks and I've always looked at good tyres as one of the cheapest forms of insurance.
    After Peter's comments had decided to go for the PS4's but with your actual experience of them, well still thinking.
    As per the original post, ours is a wagon. I can live with a little noise but a lot is an issue for me to hear others in the cars.
    Is yours a sedan or tourer?
    How would you rate the noise on chipped bitumen surfaces, out of 10, with the PS4's?

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    Ours is a sedan. On course bitumen (or uneven old concrete surfaces, eg M1), I would rate about 6 out of ten (ten being most noisy). Tyres being nearly 10" wide probably doesn't help either?

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    I've just fitted 2 PS4s at the front of a 2013 C5 X7. For me, I have never fitted a better tyre. This is my fourth C5 , I've had XM1, Primacy, Toyo, Potenza R003: Nothing compares.

    I drove to Jax in Noosaville with the worn potenza, and even allowing for the difference in wear and age, the PS4 left them for dead.
    Lots and lots of roundabouts on the sunshine motorway, that you can take at 80-90ks because not in coming traffic: grip is phenomenal.
    Confortable even at 38psi. Idon't find an issue with noise R003 were noisier.

    A word of caution though: Because you own a wagon, do you get a kind of a drumming noise from the right hand front corner at some speeds? I had that in my previous 2008 Tourer. I read a lot about it on French sites, and it is not a tyre issue apparently. For some reason my 2013 sedan doesn't do that.

    I think the PS4 at the current price is possibly the best tyre for the X7

    Note: Why do they need to be run at 38psi ? Wouldn't 32 psi be even more comfortable?
    Last edited by harrisson_citroen; 4th December 2018 at 12:24 PM.
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    thanks for the input. especially with your experience having tried several different tyres on the C5. good to know that you find the PS4's the best.
    Had them, and PS3's, on other cars and they are a phenomenal tyre in every respect.
    My conundrum is can i get much the same performance and even less noise with the P4's. According to Michelin the PS4's are only 1 db noiser.

    We had Primacy 3's on the other C5. Great touring tyre ; - smooth, quiet, spongy but almost totally lacking in grip - dry, wet, and especially laterally. So, am concerned that even the newest generation Primacy might still not have the grip and stability I want from my tyres.

    50 section tyres would be a nice improvement to the ride quality, but only available in the P4's, not the PS4's.
    There doesn't seem to be any option to move down to a 17" wheel and higher aspect ratio because there are no suitable tyres in the right sizes for 17's.

    Pressures: - 38 front, 36 rear works well on both cars and doesn't seem to affect the noise level.

    A set of P4's is almost $400 more than the PS4's mostly because its an unusual size in that range. Where as the PS4's 245/45-18 is very common, so much cheaper. Certainly on a value for money basis the PS4 is Very hard to beat. But price isn't the final consideration here. However, its always nice not to spend more than necessary.

    I wasn't aware of the noise issue with the tourer, this one is a 2011. Will have to do some research into it. Do you have any links?
    Mostly what I hear is noise in the back, rather than the front. But its hard to pin point it as that chip surface buzz permeates the whole cabin.

    Again thanks to all who have shared there knowledge and experiences. I really value your advice and input; - no matter how much i seem to flip-flop :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Ours is a sedan. On course bitumen (or uneven old concrete surfaces, eg M1), I would rate about 6 out of ten (ten being most noisy). Tyres being nearly 10" wide probably doesn't help either?
    gosh, 6/10. A bit louder than i expected, especially on a sedan.
    in your previous post you mentioned 38 psi for pressures. have you tried other pressures and did it change the noise?
    245 is quite wide. another reason for the P4's @ 235/50-18
    many cars are "overtired" in recent years, in my opinion. Licorice strap thin and overly wide; looks cool (maybe) but there is the noise, steering response, direction change reluctance and rolling resistance penalty.

    and a final question; - would you put them on again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC1701 View Post
    thanks for the input. especially with your experience having tried several different tyres on the C5. good to know that you find the PS4's the best.
    Had them, and PS3's, on other cars and they are a phenomenal tyre in every respect.
    My conundrum is can i get much the same performance and even less noise with the P4's. According to Michelin the PS4's are only 1 db noiser.

    No. The P4 is a good tyre in its class but the PS4 is a dynamic class above.

    We had Primacy 3's on the other C5. Great touring tyre ; - smooth, quiet, spongy but almost totally lacking in grip - dry, wet, and especially laterally. So, am concerned that even the newest generation Primacy might still not have the grip and stability I want from my tyres.

    Much depends on the type of P3 you had. LC is dynamically awful; ST is better but still relatively wet-gripless; P3 simpliciter is best but still rather less than front rank in its class. On rather slight evidence, the P4 is perhaps front rank in its class but is still no PS4.
    http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article...-Tyre-Test.htm



    50 section tyres would be a nice improvement to the ride quality, but only available in the P4's, not the PS4's.
    There doesn't seem to be any option to move down to a 17" wheel and higher aspect ratio because there are no suitable tyres in the right sizes for 17's.

    Pressures: - 38 front, 36 rear works well on both cars and doesn't seem to affect the noise level.

    A set of P4's is almost $400 more than the PS4's mostly because its an unusual size in that range. Where as the PS4's 245/45-18 is very common, so much cheaper. Certainly on a value for money basis the PS4 is Very hard to beat. But price isn't the final consideration here. However, its always nice not to spend more than necessary.

    I wasn't aware of the noise issue with the tourer, this one is a 2011. Will have to do some research into it. Do you have any links?
    Mostly what I hear is noise in the back, rather than the front. But its hard to pin point it as that chip surface buzz permeates the whole cabin.

    Again thanks to all who have shared there knowledge and experiences. I really value your advice and input; - no matter how much i seem to flip-flop :-)
    Seriously, I would just get the PS4 on dynamic grounds & accept the chance of some noise (though what would be quieter, yet dynamically comparable, is obscure).

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    Quote Originally Posted by 4cvg View Post
    Seriously, I would just get the PS4 on dynamic grounds & accept the chance of some noise (though what would be quieter, yet dynamically comparable, is obscure).
    thanks again peter, have had a chance to read more reviews of the P4's. Most are glowing but there are some from people with high demands and the words, "disconnected, odd feeling" and alike keep popping up in the P4 reviews.

    So it will probably have to be the PS4's and just live with noise..

    unless what about Falken Azenis FK510 as an option? Reviews call them good and very quiet, and japanese build quality. Available in a 245/50-18 .
    do you have any thoughts or comments on these peter?

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    By all reports the FK510 is good across the board. Falken seems to be seriously challenging the top makers with this tyre. Browse the Tyre Reviews tests & pay particular attention to those magazines which pass subjective comment. The PS4 is apparently crisper in feel but the FK510 is hardly PS3-style soggy. I imagine that you'd enjoy either but I'd fit the PS4 for crispness. ymmv

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC1701 View Post
    gosh, 6/10. A bit louder than i expected, especially on a sedan.
    in your previous post you mentioned 38 psi for pressures. have you tried other pressures and did it change the noise?
    and a final question; - would you put them on again?
    I assumed 5 out of 10 was normal, so slightly noisy. Would like a 3 or 4 out of 10.

    Haven't lowered pressures, as longevity (especially tyre shoulders) is important for me.

    Will try Primacy next time. PS4 handle very well, probably better than the car does!
    Last edited by turnbull151; 5th December 2018 at 11:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    I assumed 5 out of 10 was normal, so slightly noisy.
    Thanks for clarifying.


    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Will try Primacy next time. PS4 handle very well, probably better than the car does!
    Having had PS4's on other cars, I'd agree their capacity and grip exceeds the C5's chassis ability, along with most other cars for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Would like a 3 or 4 out of 10.
    Me too; but the options seem quite limited. For your interest, I've read a couple of comments that P4s don't grip so well in low temperatures <10C. Here in melbourne, that is a consideration for us.
    Currently looking at other option Falken 510's, but they also cost more than the PS4's.
    Looks like the PS4 is hard to beat and might just have to live with the noise :-(

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    did a quick round of the tyre shops today. all said, PS4s = Traction, always. P4's are more compromised for comfort ride, and not likely to be much quieter than the PS4's anyway.
    one said they'd fitted P4's to an E-Class. the owner wasn't happy with the sloppy ride and handling, so they replaced them for conti's.
    The falkens were too expensive. elsewhere in the world they are about 50% the cost of PS4 (<90 per corner in jp), but here they are 33% more then PS4's.
    Have ordered a set of PS4's and will report back once fitted and have some klicks on them.
    thanks to all those who shared their opinions, knowledge and experience. its great to have access to others with experience to draw on.

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    I have PS4's on my 2002 C5 wagon. Exceptional. I don't really notice the noise, and the comfort/handling seems to be an unreasonably good compromise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC1701 View Post
    did a quick round of the tyre shops today. all said, PS4s = Traction, always. P4's are more compromised for comfort ride, and not likely to be much quieter than the PS4's anyway.
    one said they'd fitted P4's to an E-Class. the owner wasn't happy with the sloppy ride and handling, so they replaced them for conti's.
    The falkens were too expensive. elsewhere in the world they are about 50% the cost of PS4 (<90 per corner in jp), but here they are 33% more then PS4's.
    Have ordered a set of PS4's and will report back once fitted and have some klicks on them.
    thanks to all those who shared their opinions, knowledge and experience. its great to have access to others with experience to draw on.
    I would be astonished were you to not be happy with them (dynamically at least)

    cheers! Peter

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    have had ps4's on others. they are just an astonishing tyre, so know what we are getting in for.
    they are not bad for noise but i wanted as quiet as possible

    in the end just couldn't beat the ps4's; and according to 2 tyre guys, the primacy 4 is not noticeable quieter.
    their view was, the advantage of the primacy 4 over the pilot spot 4 would be better wear and more comfortable ride.
    disadvantages were, less traction, higher price and reduced dynamic ability

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