Looking for substitue LHM in the USA
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  1. #1
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    Icon5 Looking for substitue LHM in the USA

    Well, you all have it easy trying to keep your Citroen's running, I wish I had it so good over here. As even the major chemical companies (tried Texaco, Total [who made the 1 litre bottle that I have spare] Exxon, and shell) seem to think I am lying about the existence of that fluid. I even took in the bottle to a total distrubutar in town. They all thought it was a fake. So here I am, with 1 litre of the green stuff, and in need of knowladge on what I can use to run the thing on in the future sometime (mine is not real bright green atm, needs changing and 1 litre won't do it) Any info on what is useable as a subsitute, if something could be made up (I go to a major university, have many friends who might be able to make me something, though I would MUCH prefer something off the shelf) or where I might be able to get it, even if under a different name, as long as it will work. Also, how fesible would it be to convert the system to another fluid, as some sort of general hydrolic fluid is VERY common here, due to all the truckers, actually, seems about a dozen different types can be gotten for $5/liter or les.

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    Sorry for the long post, just looking for help soon, before I have a MAJOR problem.

  2. #2
    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    There are heaps of it available in Singapore from Total's refinery there. That is where the Australian stuff comes from.
    If you chase around on the net I'm sure you'll find the website for that branch. I sorted a supply out here in Oz through them a couple of years ago and found them to be exceptionally efficient & co-operative. Freight may be a problem although if you have Total depots in the States I'm sure they could organise a drop through one of those in conjunction with a normal delivery.
    We can buy it in the form of

    20 X 1 litre bottles.

    20 litre drums

    200 Litre drums.

    Sounds like you guys have the same kind of distributors we have; either lazy or rogues.

    There is a website over there that may be of some help if you don't want to go down the genuine article path:

    http://www.compufort.com/users/cando...r%20LHM%20Cars

    poblem is, no matter what you use, it's not as per recommendations so has to be treated with a certain amount of suspicion.


    Alan S
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  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    It's a HUGE country.

    Every local airport should have Milspec 5606. This is almost the same as LHM (except it meets Military specifications for freezing/boiling etc).

    These will be covered in the fluid summary above.

    seeya,
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCTalkJCFreak
    Any info on what is useable as a subsitute, if something could be made up (I go to a major university, have many friends who might be able to make me something, though I would MUCH prefer something off the shelf) or where I might be able to get it, even if under a different name, as long as it will work.
    In this "aussiefrogs forum" there is talk about a BLUE substitution: called RENARD OIL from Holland. In Holland this garage gives demos (sometimes with an oil expert/representative). In dutch forums I read the presence during one of these Renard demo's of a 'Kendall'-oilexpert.

    Now the fact is that there is one blue hydraulic oil of Kendall.
    On the Kendall-site I find the following:
    http://www.kendallmotoroil.com/Produ...ulicFluids.htm
    Hyken® Glacial Blu Hydraulic Fluid

    The main character of LHM / LHM+ is that it has a very high Viscosity Index (340) with it the excellent start-up properties at low temperatures (read: Winter temperatures). The Viscosity Index is about the hydraulic (read:suspension) character in a wide temperature range. The higher this number the more stable the hydraulic oil.

    Normal hydraulic oil operates around V-index 90-150.
    This Kendall reaches a viscosity index of 217!!

    I don't know for sure that the Bleu Renard Oil = Kendall.
    I don't know for certain if you should have this Kendall oil but for me: A+B=C.
    The Renard-followers swear by the good properies in low temperatures.
    The Kendall-oil is indeed thinner than LHM maybe this explains the better handling in low tempertures.
    But beware: if you live in example the Arizona desert this oil may not be good for you -in Holland there are no deserts!

    I also don't know the price of this oil in USA maybe it is cheaper than LHM.
    You would be saving on shipping / import costs that is for sure if you can buy your oil local. And if this is widely available in USA; you can consider a more frequent (than with LHM) hydraulic oil maintenance interval to keep the system in good shape.


    I suggest you 'google' on:
    LHM / alternative / specs / specifications / MIL-L-5606
    There is quite a lot of data but it is also good to know more about the working of hydralic oils. Good Luck! LET US KNOW OF THE OUTCOME.

    Incognito -
    Last edited by Incognito; 5th December 2004 at 04:43 AM.

  5. #5
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    I've just had a quick search on Citroen clubs in the USA and it would seem there are still plenty of avenues for getting LHM. There are a couple of address's on Blair Anderson's site...

    maybe these guy's are a good starting point you can order online

    Western Hemispheres
    PO Box 1156 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 USA
    Business hours: Mon-Fri from 9am until 4pm
    Phone: 408-462-5104
    FAX: 408-462-4506
    Customer Service Phone: 800-222-3320

    http://www.WesternHemispheres.com

    If your not a member of your local Citroen Car Club then maybe it's time to join.

    Cheers
    Chris
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  6. #6
    Citroën, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    You know if all else fails, if you can find a Rolls Royce dealer, (yes, I know it will be expensive!) R-R cars have used Citroën suspension as a licenced product since the 1950's, and therefore will have the correct spec fluid. They don't call it LHM, but it IS the correct stuff! john s
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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    there is a product that is used in underground mines made by Bel-ray

    now this stuff is green in colour and is almost water like in viscosity

    the other thing is it is a water emulsified oil in that you mix it with water

    i forget the name of it but if i remember i'll let you know but if someone knows someone who works in an underground coal mine along side a longwall ask them what the oil is they are using in the chocks

    the other thing i remember about it is it has a taste very much like soap and has a sweet smell

    bieng that it is an oil that can be mixed with water it would make it very simple to carry around a smaller quantity of it and mix with water if need be if you come across a leak on the road somewhere

    it is also highly fire retardant
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    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

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    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Fellow Frogger! markm's Avatar
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    Go to your local "New Holland" Tractor dealer they sell LHM, new tractors use it in there brake system.
    Mark McKibbin

  9. #9
    Citroën, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCTalkJCFreak
    Well, you all have it easy trying to keep your Citroen's running, I wish I had it so good over here. As even the major chemical companies (tried Texaco, Total [who made the 1 litre bottle that I have spare] Exxon, and shell) seem to think I am lying about the existence of that fluid. I even took in the bottle to a total distrubutar in town. They all thought it was a fake. So here I am, with 1 litre of the green stuff, and in need of knowladge on what I can use to run the thing on in the future sometime (mine is not real bright green atm, needs changing and 1 litre won't do it) Any info on what is useable as a subsitute, if something could be made up (I go to a major university, have many friends who might be able to make me something, though I would MUCH prefer something off the shelf) or where I might be able to get it, even if under a different name, as long as it will work. Also, how fesible would it be to convert the system to another fluid, as some sort of general hydrolic fluid is VERY common here, due to all the truckers, actually, seems about a dozen different types can be gotten for $5/liter or les.

    Sorry for the long post, just looking for help soon, before I have a MAJOR problem.
    Surely, if you took the empty LHM bottle to a total distributor, even if they don't normally stock it, or have never seen it, they could order it for you?
    If not, why not e-mail total themselves? john s
    2005 C5 2.0 VTR Hdi 138, 1986 Kawasaki GPz 750G2

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    oops, forgot to update things here, well, even the local total distrubution warehouse was totally clueless (excause the pun), BUT I was able to get my hand on MIL 5606 - G (the current version of it) and it is red in color, seems slightyly thinner then LHM, and has been in the car for about 500 miles no problems (knock on wood) Cost: about $12/gallon when bought in a 6 gallon drum, so not too bad, and good for plenty of fluid top offs and several changes no problem, plus they dropped it off right at my house the next day. Winter is very fasst approaching here (already had a solid week and a half of below 0 C temps.) and no other problems, but I will let you all know how it works.

  11. #11
    UFO
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    Smiffy

    RR only changed to LHM in about 1980 I think, so you have to be very careful. Up to that time they were still LHS. As you would be aware, putting LHS in an LHM system (and probably VV) is disastrous.

    Pugrambo - Citroen hydraulics internals and H20 do not mix. In the club we have sectioned struts etc to prove the case. Perhaps mining gear is engineered for this or the life expectancy is less anyway.
    Craig K
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    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCTalkJCFreak
    oops, forgot to update things here, well, even the local total distrubution warehouse was totally clueless (excause the pun), BUT I was able to get my hand on MIL 5606 - G (the current version of it) and it is red in color, seems slightyly thinner then LHM, and has been in the car for about 500 miles no problems (knock on wood) Cost: about $12/gallon when bought in a 6 gallon drum, so not too bad, and good for plenty of fluid top offs and several changes no problem, plus they dropped it off right at my house the next day. Winter is very fasst approaching here (already had a solid week and a half of below 0 C temps.) and no other problems, but I will let you all know how it works.
    Hi, what was the brand and product name?
    I am also interested...

  13. #13
    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO

    Pugrambo - Citroen hydraulics internals and H20 do not mix. In the club we have sectioned struts etc to prove the case. Perhaps mining gear is engineered for this or the life expectancy is less anyway.

    even with an emulsified oil

    if you didn't know you would just think this stuff is just a very thin oil

    i just can't think of the name of the stuff
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

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    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

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    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo
    even with an emulsified oil

    if you didn't know you would just think this stuff is just a very thin oil

    i just can't think of the name of the stuff

    Steady Tiger; I once had a BP servo offer to top up my LHM tank with Coolant because "it must be the same, look; same colour!!"


    Alan S
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    Quote Originally Posted by Incognito
    Hi, what was the brand and product name?
    I am also interested...
    Mil-H-5606 is sold by Shell as Shell 41. It is used in aircraft big and small in various applications. I am sure other petroleum companies market it under different names. It used to be called Shell 4 before the many years ago.
    Regards,

    Garth.


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    Budding Architect ???? pugrambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Steady Tiger; I once had a BP servo offer to top up my LHM tank with Coolant because "it must be the same, look; same colour!!"


    Alan S
    i can't seem to find the Bel-Ray one i was talking about but Castrol make some as well

    when we used the Bel-Ray stuff the equipment stayed underground for a fair length of time and was very well abused but still the internals of valves and cylinders were always like new

    here is something by Castrol

    http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2235

    what is the viscousity of LHM ?

    I'm just thinking a little outside the square to see if something is compatible and cheaper and easier to obtain

    i realise that LHM has been sourced at a good price thanks to Alan and i have heard of canola oil bieng used but that wasn't highly successful due to sealing problems i believe

    from the way i understand it the cits use a simple hydraulic system so the only downfall would be seals and rust
    3 x '78 604 SL

    1 x '98 306 GTi6

    1 x secret project

    1 x '98 406 STDT troop carrier and i don't care if it stinks, i don't sniff it's arse Death by wank tank

    1 x '99 406SV 5spd wagon, time to burn more fuel

    1 x 1994 605 SV3.0


    WTD long range fuel tank for 605

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    The Kendall Brand would be good for the guy living in the USA.
    It is indeed the BLUE LHM; found antoher source to confirm it.

    @Pugrambo:
    Do you know about semi-synthetic oils for Citroen?
    That is also why I am so interested.
    (not because of the price in europe, but because with these low temperatures I am anoyed how long it takes to get some heat in the oil to improve the suspension; the suspensino seems harder.)

    @XM Mechanic:
    I have noticed this type of Shell 41 oil; however it is thicker that LHM.
    And its viscosity index is very low, not even 200. T
    his means that I cannot predict the behavior in extreme conditions.
    (and my goal is to improve at low temps.)

  18. #18
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Icon4 Oils certainly aint Oils!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by pugrambo

    i realise that LHM has been sourced at a good price thanks to Alan and i have heard of canola oil bieng used but that wasn't highly successful due to sealing problems i believe

    from the way i understand it the cits use a simple hydraulic system so the only downfall would be seals and rust
    Sean, for the record canola has only been used in pre '67 cars as a substitute for LHS or in Citroen speak Vegi oil cars. From '67 on the whole system was changed over to suit a mineral oil LHM.

    Never under any circumstances should these two very different oils be inter-changed. the results would be catastrophic!!!!!!!!

    For my money as long as LHM is available, (I find it hard to believe that in a country like the mighty 'US of A' that it is not available) I would not use anything but LHM aka GreenBlood

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  19. #19
    UFO
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    Um, guys, why have none of us suggested Dexron? It works when LHM is not available.


    And to reiterate, DO NOT USE CANOLA OIL in your CX.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  20. #20
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Um, guys, why have none of us suggested Dexron? It works when LHM is not available.


    And to reiterate, DO NOT USE CANOLA OIL in your CX.
    True Craig, I know of many cars that have survived for eons using Dextron 11 here in Aus, (may be a different story in a cooler climate??). I think as long as an enthusiast owns and maintains the car you would get away with it. There have been stories of friction aditives in Dextron causing early wear to major components, but I would use it under duress, as a short term solution.

    My concern would be that being a red oil an unsuspecting 'mechanic' may top up with something nasty ie even brake fluid I say keep it greeeennnn!!! though I could be tempted by a nice blue

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  21. #21
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood
    I say keep it greeeennnn!!! though I could be tempted by a nice blue

    Cheers
    Chris
    Then you would have to change your name to blueblood
    Craig K
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  22. #22
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UFO
    Then you would have to change your name to blueblood
    That would give a whole new meaning to the Citroen wave, very subtle and never above shoulder height, always from the side glass never though the windscreen - how uncouth..... "We are not amused"

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  23. #23
    sans witticism SLC206's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XM Mechanic
    Mil-H-5606 is sold by Shell as Shell 41. It is used in aircraft big and small in various applications. I am sure other petroleum companies market it under different names. It used to be called Shell 4 before the many years ago.
    I thought it changed to Shell 41 when they added Lubrasol to it
    Regards,

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    Moderator Alan S's Avatar
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    Getting back on topic in a kind of a fashion there was a mob in Holland who were selling an LHM alternative that had some good reviews, but Citroen and their cronies were trying to wipe him out; he used to be involved with Ron Veltkamp (CITF) but Ron seems to have wound the site down now & most of his links no longer are alive. It as called Renard Blue.
    Another option of course is to get Andre Pol to send some over which he dvertises he does. If you search around you'll find the details and this guy has an absolutely 100% reputation amongst Cit owners worldwide.

    http://www.citroen-andre.com/


    Alan S
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  25. #25
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan S
    Getting back on topic in a kind of a fashion
    Alan S
    Getting back on topic pfffffft, (insert emoticon for nose thumbing)


    Alan, as posted in my reply earlier #5 you can get genuine LHM in the USA already, in copious quantites. Why re-invent the wheel??

    Looking for substitue LHM in the USA

    LHM, hydraulic fluid 5 quart can LHM+ BL-466170285 $43.00US

    Have a look their site, if it is current and the parts they list are in fact available you would be able to build a D virtually from the ground up, no shortage of new parts to keep your Citroens running into the next millennium.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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