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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Default quick Xantia questionv

    due to being naughty and driving around with dead spheres, (new ones about to be ordered finally) the front right suspension feed pipe has developed a leak between the flexible hose section and the lower end of the pipe, situated just in front of the ECU box.

    So I started this arvo removing the whole shebang as it needs to be replaced, looking at taking it down to ENZED and refabricating.

    Now I'm thinking with the new one getting the flexible hose section as long as possible as the pipe is a total bastard to remove and putting a copy back in will be fraught with grief. I am still contemplating cutting sections on the old pipe just to free it out of thhe labyrnth. I will probably remove the coolant resevoir tomorrow to clear a path for removal but even then I think the aircon pipes etc are going to stop me from taking it out cleanly.

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    The question is is it ok to have a long flexible section fitted to the new pipe ends as it will make it a hell of alot easier to fit but am I going to have trouble with the pressure in a hose over such a long distance? Negligble or bad idea?

    Cheers
    Steven

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Hi Steven,

    I think the hose would cope with the pressure. The issue is that it does not bend tightly and is much thicker than the original pipe. It may not go around bends as tightly and fit though small gaps as well as the original pipe.

    They do have a problem with making the replacement pipes longer than the original though. I had the rubber pipe section replaced on the Xantia recently and they increased the length by 5cm. It fits but with a big bump upwards now. At one end they used a compression screw fitting that would allow the pipe to be separated at that location so that might be handy to know about.

    Cheers, Ken

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    thanks for input Ken, the hassle is where it goes up and snakes around the front under/behind the ecu. I'm going to persist tomorrow morning with removal and see how much stuff I can clear to make a pathway for easier removal. The system was obviously designed to go in first like all Cit stuff which makes hem a bugger to rip out. Plus these pipes are thick which doesn't give you much wriggle room. I guess if I remove the radiator it could be alot easier too. Justtrying not to upset too many things in order to get job done. My warning to anyone is don't drive around on dead spheres because there is a price to be paid in stressing parts that like suspenison behaving properly! I took a punt and lost.
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  4. #4
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    It is almost impossible to take replacement pipes through the original route (without taking the engine out!). There should be no problem with running the new pipe via a new route as long as you keep the pipe runs neat, clipped as necessary & avoid kinks. There should be enough pressure on the down stream side to push the oil into the reservoir.

    Regards

    agd123

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    I'm beating a path to clear the way. Mainly radiator and inlet hoses are the obstacle, just hurt handy with pliers, so cup of tea time. I can see it coming out as such once I have got all the junk out of the way. Btw I want to do a coolant flush and I can't spot the plug on the block, there is a sensor at back of motor with a clip and a shroud and wondering if under that where there is a bigger nut with a screw and nut attached for clip, this is a 2L turbo petrol model.

    And how do you remove radiator pipes without breaking the plastic?

    Is there a trick? I think there is.

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    The water pump is on the bottom of the bore jacket of these engines so you get a pretty complete drain when you take the bottom radiator hose off. I wouldn't bother about finding a block drain plug.

    Cheers, Ken
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    I'm getting closer to wrestling the pipe out, I need to remove the lower hose that fits at lower end of radiator and filler tank, it has one of those Conrad fittings with clip, assuming theirs an o ring in their also, (it's crudded up so guessing shot, but how do you remove the hose quietly without breaking the plastic inlet on the radiator? I've tried separating the top hose with same fitting and has a space to lever the hose out but I can only get it to wriggle a couple of mm. Like somehing stopping it. Corrosion? some hidden clip? Is their a trick to this removal? Took the outer clip off btw.

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    I had to put a new radiator in the Activa soon after I bought it because the top inlet houseing had been cracked and despite a few attempts at plastic welding, I couldn't get it to seal again. So be careful not to over stress the plastic bits. As far as I remember, once I had taken the clips out, the hose connections came off fairly easily with some gentle back and forth twisting action. I thought they were never going to seal properly on the new radiator as they seemed to be so loose, but they havn't leaked a drop yet.

    Good Luck, Ken

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    managed to wrestle the offending pipe out, no motor removal btw, did remove the ecu box, coolant filler, unplugged every plug in sight, radiator out plus air cooler, battery holder and air filter, disconnected air con hoses, gas lost but c'est la vie, still have to sort out the blower motor issue.

    Off to enzed for repair, $160 to fit hose back onto old pipe reasonable, ordered new timing belt kit, steering tie rod, auxiliary belt and new spheres so hopefully the old girl will get back to purring like she should. ha ha.

    I do like driving this car it is bloody good.

    quick Xantia questionv-e4862604-0510-4f8d-aea4-27f76721555b.jpg
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 13th July 2018 at 11:40 AM.

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    New water pump while you are at it? Cheap and easy while it is apart to do the timing belt AND PULLEYS.
    JohnW

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    thanks John kit includes those.
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    whilst waiting on parts I have got the dodgy suspension feed pipe sorted, screw up flexi hose done by Enzed, now I have been pulling the belts off to replace, auxilliary belt taken off but now checking the timing holes on the cam and crank running into problems. Followed Haynes details and decided to move the starter motor away as there is a timing hole on the block to lock a pin into the flywheel. I chose to do this as the crank pulley has the rubber inner and according to the guys on French Forum big no no to trust the location of hole in pulley as the rubber in it shifts over time and thus not reliable. So I go rotating the pulley looking for the hole in the flywheel so I can lock it off and remove the pulley but can't find the hole. I just looked at a flywheel on ebay and for the CT it doesn't have one. Haynes says the hole is in all models but is not used on auto boxes. Wondering how to proceed with removing crank pulley if I can't locate a locking hole in flywheel. Advice appreciated!

    btw the crank pulley hole doesn't line up with cam hole, its out by roughly 50/60 degrees early.
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 25th July 2018 at 01:55 PM.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Hi Steven,

    The fun continues hey. The replacement crankshaft pulleys have some white lines across the rubber joiner so you can see if the outer has rotated on the inner. I struck this issues many years ago on my 2l 16 valve Xantia Wagon.

    Loosen the crankshaft pulley either by using a rattle gun or holding the starter ring gear still with a big screwdriver in the teeth and against the bell housing. The crankshaft sprocket will not rotate as it in keyed to the crankshaft.

    Rotate the engine to get the cam pulley into the right position so a bolt (6 or 8mm) will go through the hole in the pulley and into the socket in the head. Now you can take the crank bolt out and take off the pulley. Then paint some marks on the belt and sprockets at crank and cam. Loosen the tensioner pully and remove the old belt. Transfer the marks to the new belt and fit new belt.

    At least the new belt will be on the same way as the old belt. Here is a diagram from the Haynes BX manual that shows how the cambelt fits on the key locations. You can see where the crankshaft key should be located when the crank is in the right location - I think in this position, the pistons are all at mid stroke, well away from the valves.

    Cheers, Ken
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails quick Xantia questionv-cambelt-location.jpg  
    Last edited by Ken W; 25th July 2018 at 07:25 PM.
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    thanks Ken, needed some guidance on this, was thinking jamming a screwdriver in the front end might get it across the line!

    Cheers

    Steven

    ps would it hurt to put it into 5th gear to freeze it up a bit more when getting the crank nut off?

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hey Steven, you can't go by the timing marks on an old pulley, over time the inner hub of the pulley slips quite a bit. New ones are ok when fitting, but after that you have to use the actual crank shaft position.
    Cheers. George 1/8th.

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    Thanks George luckily I picked up on that MINOR detail care of some pre pull down googling on French Car Forums UK!
    I’m waiting on a new pulley now to put it all back together as Given the old one has slid around on the rubber I decided I’m not risking it dismembering itself completely down the track. Got a new top engine mount too as the old one HD sheared right through and on another XM site it was pointed out replacement ones are better than original and sit slightly higher.
    Cheers
    Steven

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    One other thing Steve, once you drive it with the new spheres you'll never ever drive it with flat ones again. It shouldn't be done anyway. The ride will amaze you.
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  18. #18
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    flat spheres bad. The problem is over time as they expire you just go hmm this is a bit s*#t and push it. Second new set I've had on it. Last ones two years ago. I'd really like to get regassing valves on the D and the Xantia. I think a few died as they fizzed on removal : ) Hopefully they are recycleable as scrap.
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 5th August 2018 at 08:16 PM.

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    Hi forumnoreason
    Just a generic answer to the belt replacement questions, as I am not familiar with this particular engine application.
    On modern engines you must not start taking pulleys off and replacing belts, particularly timing belts unless you know EXACTLY what the procedure is. Some engines Citroen Peugeot Renault VW and others also which DO NOT HAVE KEYS or HAVE PLAY IN THE KEYWAYS so do not remove the pulleys unless you know exactly what you are doing. A mistake because "I thought they had keys" will not fix the broken valves or rockers or pistons !! The same goes for the slipping rubber harmonic balancer pulleys.

    So if I frightened you a bit it could just save you money. Do not start the job without reliable information. There are lots of home mechanic unfriendly engines out there from all your favourite brands !!
    Jaahn
    PS if spheres fizz when you take them off they were stuffed before that anyway. Two years is not enough for new spheres.
    Last edited by jaahn; 5th August 2018 at 09:00 PM.
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    Thanks Jaahn I locked it all off and marked where everything was in relation to one another, also the crank has key. Fizz equal stuffed before? Before what? Spheres go after 2 years from experience and reading online advice. I think the diaghrams were damaged care of me driving the car for an extended period with loss of pressure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    Thanks Jaahn I locked it all off and marked where everything was in relation to one another, also the crank has key. Fizz equal stuffed before? Before what? Spheres go after 2 years from experience and reading online advice. I think the diaghrams were damaged care of me driving the car for an extended period with loss of pressure.
    Hi
    I have owned several Citroen hydraulic cars. I owned them for longer than 2 years at the time and only had to have one of them regassed. The C5 was 12+ years old when I sold it and had the original spheres still and felt OK. The BX before that had the spheres regassed after several years, replaced one, and they lasted more than several ? more years before it was sold with good spheres. The GS we had for quite a few years and put in an accumulator sphere and no others in the maybe 5-6 years we had it.

    Do not believe all you read on the internet !! or in forums either.

    The diaphram is holed if the sphere fizzes when you take it off. So it will gradually loose the gas anyway through the oil. There could be substandard quality spheres sold now but I am not familiar with the current situation. However if the sphere needed changing every 2 years Citroen would not have sold many cars for the last 60+ years and RR would not have used the technology either. IMHO.
    Jaahn

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    my point was I was driving on dead or dying spheres Jaahn. Out of eight spheres on the car two fizzed on removal. C5 spheres have double membrane and durability way beyond previous spheres ( sorry thats from a chart on four different membrane spheres) and I think for a GS the spheres could last longer due to the weight of the car, and of course useage. ( I'm convinced the GS is the best car they ever made). The spheres came from sphereshop, they are stamped with date of preparation direct from IFHS in Belgium, you would assume customers aren't going to pay for spheres that have been dormant on a shelf for an extended period of time. The most recent batch I bought are a couple of months old according to the stamping. I don't doubt that with regassing I could get plenty more mileage out of the spheres I took off which aren't kaput

    As I do not have a tester I cannot comment yet on how depleted the spheres are I took off however I do know that as I stated at the start of this thread driving on dead spheres puts strain on parts that don't like it and damage results! I knew this before but needed to use the car, albeit short but costly in the long run trips and I successfully damaged pipe connections through stresses caused by flat spheres.

    Over time the usual expected suppleness of suspension can be forgotten until you hit a hole and go oh-oh we have a problem Houston but just push it another block further. Hence the warning to others reading who might not be familiar with the potential issue to simply not drive on flat spheres...

    and a simple test as most who read these threads and drive cits knows is get on the corners of the car and give it heave up and down, bouncy good stiff bad .


    guess one can believe what one wants to. fake news?

    quick Xantia questionv-376ecd5b-6e39-4941-b056-c216bc3a70b4.jpeg

    ps so we don't get into a pedantic argument I bougt new spheres as it is easier for me due to location to simply buy a set and swap, no one has testing/ recharging gear round these parts. Which is why I'm thinking of getting tecnosir valves and a gassing kit.


    http://xantia007.free.fr/23_sphere_tuto.php


    pps it was good I had the last pipe go, it pushed me to do the timing belt which is something I have been meaning to attend to since I bought the car over two years ago, having no history to work off it's condition, which as it turned out was due for attention.
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 8th August 2018 at 07:12 PM.

  23. #23
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    Well, a bit more. With the engine running, also sit on each corner in turn and validate that the car drops and that the height corrector brings the suspension back up after a wee while. I've found you always get suspension movement with a lower pressure sphere, although of course it must be stiffer with a lower gas volume.

    My recollection is that the Xantia front spheres are long-life laminated membrane spheres (? 3 dimples on the outside) and that early C5 spheres fit the back suspension. I've no idea regarding the other ones.
    JohnW

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  24. #24
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    back on the xantia quiz again, I replaced a lower control arm bush on right side but I think the rear bush is kaput, I have this shock clunk when starting from stop, in first gear, slowing down, clunks basically when moving off and slowing doen, at low speed, not detectable once running at driving speeds. , its definitely suspension related, not engine mounts, put a new top one on when doing sphere pipe and belts.
    But what is also happening is I think it is putting some kind of strain on the steering rack, one of the feed pipes has cracked and leaked and I've replace twice in last few months, its happening at one pipe only, I am wondering if it the pressing of replacement pipe but considering it happened on the original which has a nipple flange that is pressed into straight pipe as oppossed to seal on new one which is pressed into flanged pipe. Also thinking maybe a copper shim crafted first and put into rack might alleviate, this is really frustrating as I am not entirely clear what is causing the clunk.

    quick Xantia questionv-81aa7c33-0ac2-48ca-88fd-2bdfac1f8349.jpg
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 11th November 2018 at 11:52 AM.

  25. #25
    Tadpole
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    Check steering ram bushes , if worn can cause steering pipes to crack and leak

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