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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Default Hot wiring a D

    Hi all,
    I'm not trying to steal a car, we are heading off to Central Australia for a bit of a camping trip in the 69 ID19b. As I'm not going to have time to put in the new wiring loom that's on the shelf, I want to have a plan if some ignition wiring shits itself.(transition cars have the reactive insulation)
    Soooo, do I just have to run a wire from the + bat to the coil +, and then short the starter solenoid to positive to start?
    My car has the solenoid on the starter not the battery mounted version.Oh, and it has 123 ignition.
    Cheers
    Steve

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  2. #2
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    I had a 1969 ID19b. The ignition key makes/ breaks the continuous link from battery to coil. The starter button activates the solenoid to turn the starter regardless: as you will know, you can press the button and the starter will turn - but the engine will not fire unless the ignition key has been turned on.

    Running a cable from the battery straight to the coil should do exactly the same thing as putting your key in the ignition and turning it on. Why don't you try it before you leave? You should still be able to start the car from the dashboard button. If you disconnect the suggested long wire, disconnect the battery end so that there is no risk of a short or a fire.

    The ignition key also activates other circuits, so even if you use a long wire from battery to coil, you may need to turn on the key to get other things to work. To be honest if you do have the loom problems you are fearing though you'll be lucky to get anything to work.

    I've now got a 68 - same wire rotting problems as my 69! I bought a new replacement loom.......
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

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    If you’ve got a ballast resistor on the coil I’d suggest running the + feed to it rather than the coil +, as the coil will get cooked if it gets the full 12V and you’re travelling long distance. 12V for the 123 isn’t essential, it’ll run off the coil + if it’s wired like that already or direct from from the battery.

    I’ve had smoke from inside the dashboard before due to two wires shorting inside the harness between the ignition switch and the ballast resistor. It required very quick action with a spanner to get the battery terminal off and I was just pulling the car out of the garage which was furtunate. After that I ran a new wire with a fuse in it for the coil feed. I reckon if you’ve got serious doubts about the harness, try a new wire like you suggest - to be on the safe side you could always connect/disconnect it manually each time you start/stop the engine.
    Cheers, Marc.

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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be vibrating that loom too much by traveling on poor dirt roads in case it decides to short circuit itself. Maybe a quick release or switch on one of the battery terminals would be a good idea. Best idea would be to burn the midnight oil for a few nights to get a new loom fitted before you go.

    Cheers, Ken

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Steve,
    It's not a big job to fit the loom, I recon 8 hours would do it. A couple of nights after work....
    The only tricky part is lifting the steering column assembly up a little to slide the loom underneath on the drivers side. just undo the 4 bolts under the dash and it will come up easily. The old loom ends in the engine bay just need to be pushed through the firewall holes, and the brake wire pulled up through the dash shelf. If you mark all the connections BEFORE pulling it apart you will save a LOT of time stuffing around trying to get everything to work.
    I agree with Ken - fit it up before you go and happy days...
    Cheers,
    Mark...

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    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Ok, I guess I'm going to swap the harness.
    For those that have done this, apart from the replacement harness, is there anything out of the ordinary that I'm going to find I need half way through?
    Steve

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,
    Just mark up everything on the old harness (for reference) and the wires left in the car.
    That way you can lay the old harness on the ground and the new one beside it and transfer the groups across. Some will be obvious, some not. The trouble is the sleeve colours will be faded which is why it pays hugely to mark EVERYTHING up on the car and the old harness before pulling it apart.
    The fuseboxes are one example, the regulator another - both have wires which can be easily confused.
    Do you know how to unclip the fuse terminals from the fuseboxes? - BTW do not throw the old harness away, many of the terminals including the fuse holders can be reused and come in handy at times.
    A Dremel with a fine wire brush is excellent for cleaning inside the old terminals, and a pack of the rubber covers which cover the female terminals and some coloured sleeves would be handy. Some wire and terminal fittings to fix any issues with the old wires your still using is a good idea too.
    Start from the engine bay, tape the groups up after you've marked them and push all the wires from the engine bay side into the dash. Reverse the process with the new harness.
    Cheers,
    Mark...
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  8. #8
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tips, will give it a crack, seems straight forward.
    Will report back or beg assistance soon.
    I have a new laminated windscreen to fit as well. I always drive in dread of the tempered one copping a stone and ending up in my lap, far from home.
    Cheers
    Steve

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    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Hi all,
    Starting to strip out the old wiring harness ( and labelling) tomorrow. Have been looking at the supplied A4 diagram supplied seems to be from one of the manuals.
    I'm guessing that there are many small differences between years of manufacture.
    Some cars have 2 fuses for on the drivers side, and some only the four on the left side?
    Not all seem to have two fans, heater fan on left only.
    The supplied harness has only a few numbered connections, so will mark the old one well.
    Will be fitting a new regulator to replace the Bosch electronic one, so the charge lamp will work again.
    Cheers

  10. #10
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    when you are marking up the connections to the rear loom handy to have someone behind the car and turn indicators, lights and brake on and unplug plug so you know exactly what wire is doing what, then label the old rear connections, as since mentioned the colours on the connectors may have faded. Just makes it quicker than getting out and checking yourself and speed the process up. The best wiring diagrams to use are the manual ones that show exactly where wires go, and not the basic loom diagram, there might be slight differences in the colour sleeves or even wires but if you makes good notes of what goes where to start with pretty straightforward.

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Thanks for the tips.
    Have been looking thru the 814-1 manual (pdf version), it shows diagrams from models from 65 to 71.
    Hot wiring a D-wiring-diagram.jpg
    but even the latest one (shown here, Sept 71) only shows the heater fan unit (17), but no sign of the driver side fan unit?
    Also it only shows 4 fuses? Mine has two extra fuses on the driver side under bonnet?
    Seems odd, I thought all cars had the 2 fan units and 4 + 2 fuses by this time?
    Will be interesting to see what is included in the supplied harness when I compare it to he cars.
    What are the two fuses for on the Drivers side?
    Cheers
    Steve

  12. #12
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    it will be interesting. Hopefully not frustrating. Driver side is right hand lights and wiper fuse from memory. Memory....Where did you get the loom from? if you have ordered the correct loom and they have supplied the correct loom you should be close to safe. The wires that peel off he dash end will go out to the wiper taped up and you should have four to the fuse box, a red a blue and a grey for the wiper and 2 wires for the washer and one for the blower motor.

    check you have the updated manual as some pages have been added as Chris indicatd when I was having wiring problems, then use the rhd diagram, there will be slight differences such as the two blower leads as I think our cars were different in that respect. No biggy unless the loom has been made up not to recognize this little detail.
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 3rd June 2018 at 02:08 PM. Reason: typos

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    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Thanks, loom came via Darrin at Citroen Classics UK, I suspect it was from a European supplier. It was ordered as a RHD version. I guess the diagrams I'm looking at are the LHD versions so that would explain the difference.
    Onward and upward, the new wires will be a major improvement on the perishing harness.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    Do you know how to unclip the fuse terminals from the fuse boxes?
    Hi Mark,
    Can you let me know how to release these terminals?
    Thanks in advance

    Otherwise have started to mark and undo the connections in the current rats nest of modified wiring.
    I have a new regulator to fit with the alternator to replace the Bosch one, looking forward to having a working alt lamp again.
    Cheers
    Steve

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,

    There are little tabs with lugs in them, there is a hole in the fuse holder and a lug in the tab, use a small screwdriver to prise them away from each other while gently pulling the lug in the direction of the wire it holds.

    Christian Farage(sp? not sure of his last name) is the guy who does the looms - based in Germany. It's easier to order the RHD stuff from Darrin as he knows exactly what you need.

    There is a coloured RHD electrical diagram for later cars available on the Tony Jackson site, he's just done it - it will help.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tv0b25gpm...3g7TENBQa?dl=0

    Cheers,

    Mark...

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Thanks Mark for the tip.
    Whilst my car data plate shows ID19B, it is a three dial dash, not sure if this makes it a 70 D Special?
    In any case the supplied harness is labelled as being RHD suitable thru to Sept 71 models.
    Interestingly it has the 2 fuses holder sets for the drivers side like my car, and SIX fuse holder places for the left hand side of engine bay?
    My car has only 4 places in the left hand fuse set, however if you squint hard there may have been another two place holder there, why would someone remove it?
    In any case I will need to find a 2 place fuse holder from somewhere?
    The supplied harness has the 2 fan switches included, which isn't in the diagram they supply.

    The other change I'll have to make is the connections to the guards in my car have the block type multi connector and the new harness has bullet type connectors.

    I have the dash out now, the switches connectors and the engine bay have been marked - no going back.

    Steve

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    I think I have a spare 2 fuse if you want it I'll have a look this arvo. If you were keen you could take the old block connectors for front harnesses off old loom and put on new loom, or buy a bunch of connectors and redo the old front loom. I'd be hacking the old front loom wires I think. Unless you want to fork out for new front loom wires. Not too expensive then you know you have spiffy wires everywhere.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    If you can spare the 2 fuse block, that would be fantastic (PM me the damage).
    I will put bullet connectors on the loom in the guards, buggered if I'm hacking my virgin harness.
    The old harness, as you may suspect is a total mess, about 4 inches of the harness wrap left from original ( under the column). Plenty of corroded sections, many more replaced sections, lots of black electrical tape, and so on.
    Not sure that I can release the steering column to ease in the new harness, it has several anti theft bolts (cone type).
    Start putting it back together tomorrow, the only non original wires will be for the temp sender ( in cubby), and some descrete power for charger etc, but I have some correct cloth tape to use and will fuse separately back to the battery neatly.
    Thanks for input to date
    Steve

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Not sure that I can release the steering column to ease in the new harness, it has several anti theft bolts (cone type).

    Steve
    Hi Steve,
    Unless you have a modification you should be able to remove the steering column (firstly under the bonnet), are you referring to the ignition lock on the steering? If so release with the key whilst turning the wheel - or am I missing something?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

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    found it but its a four fuse gelbon box, if you want that then free!

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    found it but its a four fuse gelbon box, if you want that then free!
    Thanks
    PM on the way

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts driven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Hi all,
    I'm not trying to steal a car, we are heading off to Central Australia for a bit of a camping trip in the 69 ID19b. As I'm not going to have time to put in the new wiring loom that's on the shelf, I want to have a plan if some ignition wiring shits itself.(transition cars have the reactive insulation)

    Steve
    Better get a Sat Phone and RACV Total Care easy, forget about all this stuff

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Hi Steve,
    Unless you have a modification you should be able to remove the steering column (firstly under the bonnet), are you referring to the ignition lock on the steering? If so release with the key whilst turning the wheel - or am I missing something?

    Cheers
    Chris
    Hi Chris
    The harness goes under the steering column, between the metal plate.
    Rather it's the fixed housing that the rotating column is in. It was suggested that relaxing the bolts would give some space, however they may have been referring to a different set up on an early year model, without security bolts. The model before mine would have had the key in the dash.
    Will be having a closer look in the morning.
    Cheers
    Steve

  24. #24
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Hi Chris
    The harness goes under the steering column, between the metal plate.
    Rather it's the fixed housing that the rotating column is in. It was suggested that relaxing the bolts would give some space, however they may have been referring to a different set up on an early year model, without security bolts. The model before mine would have had the key in the dash.
    Will be having a closer look in the morning.
    Cheers
    Steve
    aha, thanks Steve I understand the dilemma. . . unchartered territory for me

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Sorry Steve I had it in my head you car was a 68.
    You can get the harness under the column without slackening bolts, just flatten the harness out a bit.
    I did it with my 69.
    Cheers
    Mark...

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