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  1. #26
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Sorry Steve I had it in my head you car was a 68.
    You can get the harness under the column without slackening bolts, just flatten the harness out a bit.
    I did it with my 69.
    Cheers
    Mark...

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  2. #27
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    No problem Mark.
    Have taken the opportunity with the dash out to insulate the firewall, and to remove the wiper motor that has the same crap wire, it was quite alarming - the condition of the wiper motor wires, have now replaced the wires on the motor.
    Have identified all the wires on the new loom ( I think), the wiring to the wiper motor from the wiper switch is a little different.
    The wiper has three terminals, red, blue and white & an earth to the body. The new harness has an extra wire - Black. Can't figure out what it would be for, as my original setup had two speeds, was there ever an intermittent version? Also in the bundle for the wiper is a grey wire marked as being for the wiper. ( They aren't for the washer ,as I have identified them).
    Sure it will become clear as I proceed
    Cheers
    Steve

  3. #28
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    I had this confusion on the loom I bought. Sounds like there is the extra wire which you don’t need on your model. You’ll be fiddling around with that to get it to behave.

  4. #29
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    My car is an LHD, but what i can say is that up to and including the 1968 year, the wiper was a simple 3 wire, two speed affair and was operated by a twist knob on the dashboard. This is mid period dashboard with the 'toothpaste top' buttons.

    From the 1969 model year the cars (DS and ID) had not yet been given the three dial facelift, but the controls changed and the wiper was controlled by a stalk. The wiper motor changed to a five wire version (black, white, red and blue and a brown wire - possibly spade end?) attached to the motor gear body. No grey involved.

    So the question is: what controlled you have? If it's a three dial dash, it should have the stalk controlled switching, linked to a five terminal wiper motor. If this new loom has extra wiper wires compared to your old loom, then I'm not clear on how it was connected up to the stalk control?

    That grey wire: Sounds as though you have already checked this and apologies if so, but where exactly does it come out of the tape binding of the loom? What other wires (if any) come out at the same point? Are you sure it's intended for the wiper? the wires are tagged up with numbers that correspond to the numbered parts on the diagram supplied with the loom. What part number tag is on the end? Is it the same as all the other wiper wires?

    If it helps you to match up wires, I had cause to investigate the wiring on my three wire wiper:


    • The wire from the loom with the red sleeve goes to the top contact as you look at the motor. It controls the fast wiper speed.There is a thin white wire coming off this contact that disappears into the wiper motor body.
    • the wire from the loom with the grey/ blue sleeve goes to the middle contact as you look at the motor. There is a wire in some kind of black sleeve coming off this terminal and it disappears into the wiper motor body.
    • The wire from the loom with the black sleeve goes to the bottom contact as you look at the motor. It controls the wiper 'park' function.



    UPDTATE:
    On the LHD circuit diagram, on the stalk end of the loom for later cars there are five wires connected to the stalk control. Four of them tally to the expected connections on the later wiper motors. the fifth wire controls the electric screen wash pump under the bonnet. Is that what your mystery wire is for? can you do a continuity test to see where the grey wire comes out at the other end? On the looms associated with the three wire wipers and knob controlled wipers this is not an issue as the screen wash is a thumb operated push button.

    Hope this helps!
    Last edited by Budge; 7th June 2018 at 04:53 AM.
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

  5. #30
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    If you have the same loom type I was supplied with the white lead is of no use to the wiper, I think these were on LHD cars only, the black, blue and red sleeve go to the wiper and you may have a yellow lead bundled as well which is not necessary for a three terminal wiper motor. But unless you want to unravel the tape and remove the extra wires ( like he extra white wire and the yellow if on loom) just earth up the yellow with the wiper earth connection that runs off the wiper.
    If you have a switch with a yellow lead going out that is the power which connects at the connector to the black lead which in turn becomes the grey with the black sleeve that connects to the black wire in the motor.
    is this what it looks like with new leads?

    Hot wiring a D-b5b0cb32-4ca8-4945-861d-5bebdc9bba4a.jpg

    I also found the red and blue connectors were back the front on my loom and had to swap them at the switch end connector (black square connector) otherwise it would just be getting power and not running! The wiper case gets really hot but no wiping was how I found out! If you find this happening connect the red and blue to red and blue at motor and swap over the pin connectors at switch and remember for the future : ) When you look at it down the track and wonder why it is like that. groan.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hot wiring a D-115ad375-bdd8-4e66-84aa-2fa19bf05de4.jpg  

  6. #31
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    Thanks Gents,
    It is as you say, here is a picture of mine.
    Hot wiring a D-wiper.jpg

    You can see the extra white wire in the new harness that corresponds to nothing in the switch plug.
    At the wiper end, (I mistakenly called it a grey wire but it is Black - as per the sleeve end)
    The yellow wire is surplus as mentioned, I may use it as the earth for the fan.

    I checked the function of the wiper switch.
    When in the low speed position, both the Red & Blue contacts receive power.
    When in High speed only the red receives power.
    When I tested the wiper motor on the bench with these settings, it works as advertised.
    It seems odd that the Blue & Red receive power for the low setting, but it works and doesn't work any other way.

    The new harness has a power wire and an earth for the washer pump.
    Hot wiring a D-washer.jpg
    At the switch end of the harness there is a Mauve wire, that shows continuity to the red spade connector, the bare spade connector shows continuity to ground in the harness.
    However there doesn't seem to be a power feed for the switch?
    Hot wiring a D-wash-sw.jpg
    You can see the 2 terminals above for the washer switch. The old harness has a wire that feeds it but it has been part of some hacking of the harness.

    Looking at some wiring diagrams it sort of shows the power coming from the wiper control, mmmmm ?

    Thanks for the assistance.
    Cheers
    Steve

  7. #32
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    Hi Steve,

    I can't help with how you go about sorting this out but note as you say the wiring diagrams don't appear to agree with our AUS delivered cars.

    Just to add to the confusion I've just compared a LHD and RHD wiper switch, note the LHD switch has 4 wires and includes the white, also the LHD has only 1 connector for the washer where our RHD switch has 2.

    The latest wiring diagrams for late RHD via Tony Jackson show the 4 wire wiper/ 1 wire washer switch not as fitted to our cars

    Note, aside from the additional white the pin positions for LHD and RHD are the same. . .





    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hot wiring a D-left-right-hand-drive-switch2.jpg   Hot wiring a D-left-right-hand-drive-switch1.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Thanks Gents,
    It is as you say, here is a picture of mine.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You can see the extra white wire in the new harness that corresponds to nothing in the switch plug.
    At the wiper end, (I mistakenly called it a grey wire but it is Black - as per the sleeve end)
    The yellow wire is surplus as mentioned, I may use it as the earth for the fan.



    The new harness has a power wire and an earth for the washer pump.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    At the switch end of the harness there is a Mauve wire, that shows continuity to the red spade connector, the bare spade connector shows continuity to ground in the harness.
    However there doesn't seem to be a power feed for the switch?
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	wash sw.jpg 
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ID:	106545
    You can see the 2 terminals above for the washer switch. The old harness has a wire that feeds it but it has been part of some hacking of the harness.

    Looking at some wiring diagrams it sort of shows the power coming from the wiper control, mmmmm ?

    Thanks for the assistance.
    Cheers
    Steve
    The (LHD) circuit diagrams in manual 814 show that the black wire into the stalk unit comes from one of the fuses. The wire at the other end of that fuse comes (via a little piggyback from the next door fuse) from the battery positive terminal. So that black wire into the stalk is the 'power in' from the battery - via a fuse first. (as an aside: the powered wire coming out of the fuse goes to both the stalk AND the wiper motor in parallel. It doesn't go to one then on to the other).

    Of the five connections/ pins on the stalk, only one (mauve) is for the washer. They just happen to look like a pair because of the way the stalk is built. 814 shows the other four connected directly to the wiper motor. If your motor doesn't need the white wire, then you have a spare wiper wire - not a spare washer wire

    The spade end with no cover is probably the washer pump earth connection as you say. From 814, it would probably be expected to have a brown cover over the end?

    Regards
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

  9. #34
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    My last post was written before I had seen that Greenblood had posted.

    Forgetting the LHD diagrams for a moment, it's clear that the internal workings of a RHD stalk are different to those in an LHD stalk. If your new loom hasn't got a power feed, then can't you just take a new, separate wire off the accessory terminal behind the glovebox? Maybe with a conveniently located in-line fuse if need be?
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

  10. #35
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    Thanks Chris & Budge,
    I'll check thru the harness again, but I may well run power from the accessories power, it should be fused already - will check.
    The harness is labelled to suit a range of year models. And it does have specific RHD features like the switch for the drivers side fan marked as 38.1, and the left that is described in diagrams as ' heater' as 38 as per the wiring schematics.
    Cheers
    Steve

  11. #36
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    when you plug it all in you will find the lead going into the switch on the connector will give you power. It s the yellow with the black sleeve.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    when you plug it all in you will find the lead going into the switch on the connector will give you power. It s the yellow with the black sleeve.
    That appears to agree with the wiring diagram, and would give ignition switched power. The diagram though shows yellow with a mauve sleeve. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  13. #38
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    there's a few wires here and there that don't correspond with the diagrams I found on a new loom Chris, I guess in Steve's case he doesn't find what I did with the charging set up. I reckon when plugged in most of it will work! Most...

  14. #39
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    So it's taken a little longer than 8 hours ��
    Harness is now threaded into place.
    Dodged a bullet with the wiper motor, I had taken the drive arm off during the wire replacement process. I tested it all when installed in car. I had re attached the drive arm 180 degrees from correct position, so the wipers when parked pointing up the screen. Glad I checked before reinstalling the whole dash!
    Looks like my rear harness has been remade/ messed with. Apart from being wrapped in electrical tape, when id-ing the connections under the dash I ended up with 3 tail light wires. So I'm guessing it should be a Left only parker, Right only parker ( for the dash mounted rocker switch) and both parkers and the plate lamp for the third wire from the lighting switch - oh joy.
    Did a continuity test again on the washer switch, it doesn't get any power from the wiper switch, only continuity is between its two terminals, that's fine will sort with acc power.
    Very pleased with the new harness, very well made and robust.
    Cheers
    Steve
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  15. #40
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    Well done. I've got a loom from Darrin to fit in the near future. It's a LHD so hopefully will be more straightforward!
    1968 DS21bvh Pallas in Gris Palladium

    Restoration blog: https://ds-restoration.blogspot.co.uk

  16. #41
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    I'm sure you will be fine, 99% of things follow the wiring diagrams, the harness is a wonderful improvement on the hacked and deteriorating old one.
    I still have things to hook up, all things under hood including a new reg that will give me a charge lamp again, sort the rear connections and my water temp gauge and some power for charger etc. The extras won't touch the new loom at all. I think the only connections on the loom to alter is for the regulator which have to be spades.
    Thanks for everyone's assistance and interest to date.
    Thanks also to Hot Rod Electric for his AF post on removing the dash.

    Steve

  17. #42
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    Just a question for others with D's that have the rocker switch on the dash for the left and right parkers. The one on my car has never worked - which I put down to the dodgy harness. Do other cars with this rocker work i.e. choosing left or right with the rocker illuminates the left or right parkers?
    I discovered that the rear harness on mine ( there are 4 wires going to the rear lamps) that the left tail, right tail and plate light have been soldered together, thus making the rocker function not work, and how I id-ed 3 tail light wires in the rear loom under the dash where it links up with the main harness.
    Regards
    Steve

  18. #43
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    Almost done with the install (had a few days on other work).
    As noted before the rear loom behind the bumper had the left, right & plate lamp wires soldered together (see pic)
    Hot wiring a D-rear.jpg
    This gave me what looked like 3 tail lamp wires when testing the rear loom connections under the dash, also this makes the dash mounted rocker switch not function as intended. Why this was modified I don't know. In any case these were separated and insulated.

    For anyone using one of these replacement looms, it differs from the diagrams in 814-1, the diagrams show a fuse between the mauve terminal wire coming from the lighting switch to the blue terminal at the rocker switch, this isn't in place in this loom. There is however 2 fuses, one each in the left and right tail circuit between the red and green terminals on the rocker switch and the exit point from the main loom to the rear loom. (not of huge consequence, but helps to know when checking continuity).

    The only other difference has been with the lighting switch, mine has 4 wires, 1 power coming in , and parkers, low & high beam going out. The harness has 5 wires marked for the lighting switch, the extra is for the driving lamp (?) So it should be a matter of mating this with the high beam output wire to function.

    Now I need some advice on connecting the harness connector to the battery terminal.
    The loom has a small 'eye' type connector for the main connection to battery +. However it is quite small. the hole would be no larger than 6mm, which is way too small to connect to a regular battery terminal connector?? ( well not one I have seen).
    Any suggestions, or am I missing something in this connection

    cheers
    Steve

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post

    Now I need some advice on connecting the harness connector to the battery terminal.
    The loom has a small 'eye' type connector for the main connection to battery +. However it is quite small. the hole would be no larger than 6mm, which is way too small to connect to a regular battery terminal connector?? ( well not one I have seen).
    Any suggestions, or am I missing something in this connection

    cheers
    Steve
    Hi Steve,
    I remember something similar being mentioned here in the past, there is a 30 amp breaker fitted to early cars sometimes on the firewall on the LHS and sometimes fitted to the battery cage. Not sure what years or models but possibly where your 'eye' connector would go?



    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  20. #45
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    Hi Chris,
    This would make sense, as there are parts of the loom that are not protected by a fusible link. I wonder why the wiring diagrams don't show something like this?
    Seems like a good solution
    Thanks
    Steve

  21. #46
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    doesn't the terminal connector just slip between the terminal and the fixing bolt onto the positive on battery? Or are you mixing up the positive with the regulator connection, both eyes and red sleeves?

    all assumptions!

    Hot wiring a D-ca13a076-d30a-425a-b5c7-d2a9a1d0d5c9.jpg
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 13th June 2018 at 09:21 PM.

  22. #47
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    doesn't the terminal connector just slip between the terminal and the fixing bolt onto the positive on battery? Or are you mixing up the positive with the regulator connection, both eyes and red sleeves?

    all assumptions!

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	CA13A076-D30A-425A-B5C7-D2A9A1D0D5C9.jpg 
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    I'm sure I haven't confused the two ��. The regulator wires (4) are bundled together distinctly (and run out a fair bit longer) and the battery connection is free alongside the starter solenoid lead. It is really quite small for the job it does. I thought maybe that European battery clamps were a different style. Come to think of it, the Berlingo, (albeit from a different era) has the tiniest bolt on its lead.
    And I'm kinda stuck with the battery lead I have as it's not removable from the cable, and the other end is on the starter, and that's not coming off!
    Cheers
    Steve

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    doesn't the terminal connector just slip between the terminal and the fixing bolt onto the positive on battery? Or are you mixing up the positive with the regulator connection, both eyes and red sleeves?

    all assumptions!
    Yeah, I don't think the 30 amp breaker was used on the later cars - So the connection would be direct to battery.
    I don't know for sure but as Steve's loom has the 'eye' connector it may connect via that 30 amp breaker?

    I'll have a look in the morning, I know mine doesn't have the breaker at the battery but may have next to the main fuse block. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  24. #49
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    Hi all,

    Ok, visited local auto electrician, got this fusible link. (see pic).
    Has a 60 amp link at present, this value was recommended as the alternator link to battery is thru the harness, it can be changed if required.
    I'm happy with this, as according to the various wiring diagrams there are parts of the harness in our cars that are not fused at all, and a short could result in a melted harness or a vehicle fire. I had this happen to me in 504 once and it wasn't fun, ended up having to replace the harness and got stranded interstate in the process. The cause in that case was a previous owner had added a non fused cable thru the dash.
    Regards
    Steve

    Hot wiring a D-fuselink.jpg

  25. #50
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    Hi All
    have discovered a compatibility issue with the harness and my car.
    Mine is a 69-70 that would normally have the starter solenoid on the battery, however my car has a new starter with solenoid on the starter itself. The battery solenoid version switches the earth of the solenoid to activate the starter , and there seems to be a wire that is connected in the harness to the charge lamp.
    I found a diagram in an old thread that Chris had posted ( thanks Chris), have laid it side by side with later set up.

    Hot wiring a D-start-compare.jpg
    Arrowed is a brown (Mr) wire that runs from the switch to the to the regulator and a wire to the charge lamp. In this arrangement when the switch is not in operation there is no flow to the positive side, so i guess the lamp sees ground?

    In the later cars there is no connection between the starter circuit (starter is 11) and the reg.
    If you wire it up by colours and numbers the lamp ends up staying on even with the key off.

    I figure if I swap the brown and white wires, the lamp won't be feed and stay on, because the lamp wire will be on the negative side of the switch.

    So if you have a car that normally has the battery solenoid, and have a new starter with solenoid on the starter........................................... ... you most likely already know this.
    Steve
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hot wiring a D-reg-starter.jpg  

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