2CV starting problems
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Thread: 2CV starting problems

  1. #1
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    Default 2CV starting problems

    In a previous post I described how I fixed my cold start problems- with a better coil. However my dolly has just been on its first long run--to Dalby .Still starts instantly when cold, but when hot , that's another story, it is diabolical . I must fix this before I wear out the starter motor! Any clues anyone?
    Woody

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    Brian.

    It looks like you've addressed any ignition issues fairly thoroughly. Perhaps the delivery of fuel is your next port of call.

    I'd be looking for maybe flooding being the issue when the carby is warm. Is there a petrol smell at all?

    Gaston tended to overflow around the bowl a tad while we were in NZ and I will be addressing this when he finally returns next week. That being said, he started first turn of the key whether cold or hot, so maybe not a helpful observation.

    General rule to start a recalcitrant engine if flooding is suspected is to hold the accelerator all the way to the floor while cranking. Don't pump, just hold until it starts. If this works, then flooding could be a suspect.

    If that be the case then it may be time to address things like float levels, fuel pressure (and delivery) and even jet sizes.

    Fuel pumps can go on strike when hot sometimes, which, combined with some evaporation would cause difficult hot starts.

    Another way to address (and prove) flooding is to walk away for a while. If the problem is excess fuel in the inlet tract then it'll (generally) evaporate while you have a calming draught of brewed stuff, or even a cup of tea.

    I've also seen several mentions of hot start difficulties on a couple of the overseas 2CV fora, so maybe a bit of Internet Trawling will enlighten as well.

    Bonne Chance Mon Ami!

    Pottsy.

    PS. I found this on a Pembleton forum. Apparently the "Official" hot engine starting procedure from the driver's manual!

    "Fully depress the accelerator pedal and keep it there as long as the engine does not start.
    Operate the starter until the engine runs. If the engine does not start at the first attempt, under no circumstances release the accelerator pedal. Wait a few seconds and operate the starter again."
    Last edited by pottsy; 13th April 2018 at 04:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian woodcock View Post
    In a previous post I described how I fixed my cold start problems- with a better coil. However my dolly has just been on its first long run--to Dalby .Still starts instantly when cold, but when hot , that's another story, it is diabolical . I must fix this before I wear out the starter motor! Any clues anyone?
    Woody
    Hi Woody,

    Early failure of new coils is not unheard of on CVs, as is capacitors dying after sitting many years.

    Before diving too deep into the fuel system, suggest the following:

    Check coil is not reducing output when hot:

    1. swap out the coil with someone else's good one when the engine is hot.

    2. if you don't have a spare coil, try carefully cooling the one you have with a wet rag / very,very careful trickle of cold water.

    Check capacitor is not deteriorating when hot by putting another capacitor in parallel. This can be done at the coil rather than having to go into the points box.

    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Thanks for your helpful comments. I am pretty confidante about the sparks with 123 Ign plus a Sherpa coil.I will check the float level and look for flooding, I guess I could also monitor the fuel pressure!
    Woody

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian woodcock View Post
    Thanks for your helpful comments. I am pretty confidante about the sparks with 123 Ign plus a Sherpa coil.I will check the float level and look for flooding, I guess I could also monitor the fuel pressure!
    Woody
    Hi Woody,
    That does sound like a very robust ignition solution. Hope it is something simple - It is a 2cv after all!
    Cheers,
    Andrew

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    Have you checked the condition of the base of the carby and the fibre heat spacer under the carby, this is often warped and gives problems.

    Often fuel vaporisation can be another issue when it hot, and having a fuel filter in the engine bay, anywhere near the carby is asking for problems. The best location for the fuel filter is on the chassis on the L/H side where the long pipe from the tank finishes, and the elbow goes up toward the fuel pump. Use 2 2cv seat o ring and attached to the chassis like on a Carby SM

    Attachment 105203Attachment 105204

    BTW Andrew, your Birotor isn't a 1971........I registered it as a 1971, to get around ADR compliance. I still think it was probably built in 1973, as it was white, so a pre production car? This in only hypothetical?

    It's definitely not a '75, as it has the early seats.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    Its unusual that the exhaust is ducted straight into the inlet manifold

    It means the carb gets very hot

    Whether its the fuel vaporising , or it flooding up , I dont know

    My Duck does not run well when that carb heats up , and there is no way of removing the carb heat

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    Not 2cv of course, but the Solex carbs on rear-engined Renaults are prone to "percolation" when the engine is stopped when hot. A bit of fuel bubbles out of the accelerator pump tube straight down the inlet. Then they are too rich to start unless you crack open the throttle perhaps 10-20% and crank holding it open, to give a slightly weaker mixture. Then they fire perfectly.
    Greg likes this.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  9. #9
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    Default Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Not 2cv of course, but the Solex carbs on rear-engined Renaults are prone to "percolation" when the engine is stopped when hot. A bit of fuel bubbles out of the accelerator pump tube straight down the inlet. Then they are too rich to start unless you crack open the throttle perhaps 10-20% and crank holding it open, to give a slightly weaker mixture. Then they fire perfectly.
    Could that happen on the 2CV ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Have you checked the condition of the base of the carby and the fibre heat spacer under the carby, this is often warped and gives problems.

    Often fuel vaporisation can be another issue when it hot, and having a fuel filter in the engine bay, anywhere near the carby is asking for problems. The best location for the fuel filter is on the chassis on the L/H side where the long pipe from the tank finishes, and the elbow goes up toward the fuel pump. Use 2 2cv seat o ring and attached to the chassis like on a Carby SM

    Attachment 105203Attachment 105204

    BTW Andrew, your Birotor isn't a 1971........I registered it as a 1971, to get around ADR compliance. I still think it was probably built in 1973, as it was white, so a pre production car? This in only hypothetical?

    It's definitely not a '75, as it has the early seats.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Really appreciate the info Greg! It currently has tombstones out of an X2 or something in it. Have salvaged some early seats out of a 1015 and want to get it closer to original. Do you happen to know what type of cloth it was originally trimmed in?, and was the dash black or brown?

    Woody, you can have your thread back now, sorry for the mini hijack, and keen to hear how you are progressing!

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    Can someone (Yo John ) capable , pull the aircleaner after just stopping on a hot day and see if the acc pump is discharging,,,,, leaking fuel in the carb , to clear up this no restart problem that occurs sometimes

    Thank You

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Andrew,

    I'm a little saddened that you know so little about the extraordinary car you have or the history of the Birotor in general.

    While I didn't stick to the original trim in the car, the seat frames are original Citroen Birotor.The first year of production, the seats were the wide GS 1220 seat, but the backrest was tombstone. Whether they narrowed the 1220 seats to fit the wider console, I'm not sure, but the mounting holes for the seat were the same as a 1220.

    In 1975, Citroen changed the seats in the GS, and made them narrower to fit the GS wider console. This included new runners, and mountings, and the Birotor adopted the new seats as well, but with the backrest still tombstone style.

    To make better use of the production costs to develop the 2nd version of the tombstone seats, Citroen also used them in the GSX2.This obviously helped dissipate the poor sales of the Birotor.

    The Birotor was fitted with Hazel (noisette) coloured velour and vinyl seats. Velour faces, and vinyl side trimmings. The door pillars etc were covered in Hazel vinyl as well.

    I fitted GSA pillar trims to match the blue interior I fitted. Would I do the same again? Probably knot, but then again, the seat trim was no longer available when I started the rebuilding of the car.

    The original dash was hazel coloured (unique to the Birotor), but had a black steering wheel, although, other pics, as in the brochure, show a hazel coloured wheel

    For the most part, the car was kept as much as possible as original (except the interior and paint colour, but the original was white on this Birotor, so that wasn't what was used on production cars?).

    Preproduction was obviously going on for some time before it's release, as you can see by the photos in the workshop manual, and the publicity brochures, that these cars are all fitted with GS1015 style rear vision mirrors. The use of theses mirrors stopped in 1972?

    Andrew, if your going to make changes to the car to make it or keep it original, I suggest you do some research as to what exactly original is?

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    John,
    it was me who posted that quote from Citroen's 2CV Owner's Handbook onto the Pembleton forum.
    For what it's worth, the advice to "fully depress the throttle and keep it there even if it takes several bursts of the starter for the engine to start" has always worked for me during 37 years of A series ownership.
    That included more than a few little jaunts down through France to Spain and Portugal...

    Anyhow, if you think about how a carburettor works, cracking the throttle open 10-20% means that the idle circuit would still be active, therefore drawing in more fuel, which is the last thing you need for a hot start.
    Also, at 'full throttle' and cranking speed, gas velocity through both venturis will be low, so neither of the main circuits will be active.

    FWIW, we (the long-suffering but ever tolerant pit crew) usually have to remind ( aka 'shout at') drivers with limited experience of 2CVs not to pump the throttle pedal when starting their shift after a driver change (or a pit stop for a splash and dash) during our annual 24 hour race.

    Ken
    ( p.s. Almost 30*C in this part of Blighty today and I had to drive into town, about 5 miles away.
    That's the highest temperature recorded in April during the last 70 years, although with a DOB of 1948, I don't remember how it was back then.
    At least 4 short stops involved in the running around, easy start each time. )


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Not 2cv of course, but the Solex carbs on rear-engined Renaults are prone to "percolation" when the engine is stopped when hot. A bit of fuel bubbles out of the accelerator pump tube straight down the inlet. Then they are too rich to start unless you crack open the throttle perhaps 10-20% and crank holding it open, to give a slightly weaker mixture. Then they fire perfectly.
    Last edited by Ken H; 20th April 2018 at 07:27 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken H View Post
    John,
    it was me who posted that quote from Citroen's 2CV Owner's Handbook onto the Pembleton forum.
    For what it's worth, the advice to "fully depress the throttle and keep it there even if it takes several bursts of the starter for the engine to start" has always worked for me during 37 years of A series ownership.
    That included more than a few little jaunts down through France to Spain and Portugal...

    Anyhow, if you think about how a carburettor works, cracking the throttle open 10-20% means that the idle circuit would still be active, therefore drawing in more fuel, which is the last thing you need for a hot start.
    Also, at 'full throttle' and cranking speed, gas velocity through both venturis will be low, so neither of the main circuits will be active.

    FWIW, we (the long-suffering but ever tolerant pit crew) usually have to remind ( aka 'shout at') drivers with limited experience of 2CVs not to pump the throttle pedal when starting their shift after a driver change (or a pit stop for a splash and dash) during our annual 24 hour race.

    Ken
    ( p.s. Almost 30*C in this part of Blighty today and I had to drive into town, about 5 miles away.
    That's the highest temperature recorded in April during the last 70 years, although with a DOB of 1948, I don't remember how it was back then.
    At least 4 short stops involved in the running around, easy start each time. )
    Wow! We had 30 the other day in Western Oz, in Perth, but it is early autumn although on the warm side! But in England?

    I don't quite understand how 20% throttle would have much idle circuit contribution - at least for my Renault 32 mm Solex, which would run at least 2000 rpm at that sort of throttle opening. Regardless, we agree that holding the throttle open and cranking a bit does the trick!

    Your stops were short I note. For me, it is the medium length stops that cause the issue, with more time for percolation and not enough time to cool down.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Unfortunately my work on the Carby has been cut short by a more serious problem, the Starter Motor has packed up so I think I better start a new thread. Thanks for all your attention
    Woody

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    that's still a starting problem!

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