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Thread: CX AC query and request

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    That one actually looks pretty good. I bet its the twin belts slipping and squealing ... Not the super tight A/C belt. You need to run everything incredibly tight ... water pump destroying tight, or it'll just slip and squeal. This is "normal" CX. All of the factory setups do it too. The CX water pumps seem to die as a past time. I think the issue is the very short belt runs. The longer the belt run, the less tension required.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: The twin belts... I bet they are the ones slipping and squealing them .... they need to be TIGHT! especially with the added alternator load of running the AC
    Thanks Shane. The double belts drive just the HP pump, and I'm pretty sure they aren't slipping as the squealing only ever happens on AC start up. I guess the startup squeal might just be alternator, a single belt, but there isn't a big current demand jump right at startup from idle. I'll double check the belts though! A wee bit of CRC belt grip seems to have stopped it, but you'd have to expect it won't last. As was said earlier, it tackles the symptom, not the problem.

    I'll persist!

    Cheers

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    I agree with Shane as I just fitted a new compressor & experienced the squealing due to the twin water pump belts & not the compressorís. Btw how much r134a gas did your AC tech add? (Dual AC)
    Thanks for that. Does yours squeal just as you take off from a prolonged stop at traffic lights with the AC operating?

    What do the double belts drive on your car? Mine is a C-matic and I don't have another type to look at easily.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I think the issue is the very short belt runs. The longer the belt run, the less tension required. seeya, Shane L.
    That makes sense in that longer runs can often have a greater wrap around the pulleys, depending on location of idler pulley that is.
    JohnW

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  4. #29
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    Mine car is some as yours see your 6th Jan picture. The belts run from the cam where the small axel runs to the hydraulic pump. I was surprised how tight all belts have to be to prevent squealing. No issue since tightening. My issue that the recommended charge rate tables don't state "dual" amounts? Mine isn't cold enough with 900g r134a. There should be a sticker near your radiators stating what amounts your tech's added. The gauges were within range yet that varies on ambient temp. What's is everyone else's? CX AC query and request-img_0571.jpgCX AC query and request-img_0092.jpg
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Mine car is same as yours see your 6th Jan picture. The belts run from the cam where the small axel runs to the hydraulic pump. I was surprised how tight all belts have to be to prevent squealing. No issue since tightening. My issue that the recommended charge rate tables don't state "dual" amounts? Mine isn't cold enough with 900g r134a. There should be a sticker near your radiators stating what amounts your tech's added. The gauges were within range yet that varies on ambient temp. What's is everyone else's? Click image for larger version. 

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    Thanks for that information. I will find out how much refrigerant was added and post here for you - it is pretty cold but I remember that they had not realised there was the dual AC system.

    Cheers
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    JohnW

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinandfonic View Post
    Mine car is same as yours see your 6th Jan picture. The belts run from the cam where the small axel runs to the hydraulic pump. I was surprised how tight all belts have to be to prevent squealing. No issue since tightening. My issue that the recommended charge rate tables don't state "dual" amounts? Mine isn't cold enough with 900g r134a. There should be a sticker near your radiators stating what amounts your tech's added. The gauges were within range yet that varies on ambient temp. What's is everyone else's? Click image for larger version. 

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    You can't use that as a guide. I just keep adding gas until the pressures are close to normal on the low side. With the rear units, depending on the rear unit, and pipe length ran, its just guesswork. There will be no exact charge details as a lot fo the rear units are dealer fitted in Australia.

    the entire CX a/c unit is just way underspec. The fan is woeful, the evaporator is small. I have a crappy old range rover here. The difference is day and night. It flows HUGE amounts of air with the fans running. The evaporator would be 10times the size of the CX. It has the most effective A/C of any car I have ever traveled in ( absolutely bizarre given its from the frozen, damp soggy UK).

    regardless of the running cost of the POS range rover.... we ALWAYS use it in the hot weather. Its just so much cooler than any other car we own including the modern 407 poogoe.

    seeya,
    shane L.
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  7. #32
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    There will be no exact charge details
    And with a receiver dryer ("accumulator") the charge weight is not particularly critical.

    Provided the Tx valve is not "starving" and the condenser is not "flooded" the system will fine. Excess charge will be retained in the dryer.

    It's takes a little bit of "sixth sense" to know when the charge is optimum.

    And pressures are not always the entirely reliable on a cold day. Ie without a heat load on the evaporator and head pressure on the condenser.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
    Hi John, Having a bit of a flashback :-) The larger pulley was sourced locally but from where I can’t remember. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    'Chain & Drives' in Wangara have a range of double belt pulleys - exactly what I need once the centre has been bored out, the boss turned down a bit and the five bolt holes are drilled to fasten it on. As usual, It's yet another interesting shop to browse the other stuff. Ardello Engineering off Orrong Road, Welshpool is doing my wee bit of machining tomorrow - impressive medium-sized workshop and apparently there for years, strongly recommended to me. Similarly, a new smaller pulley needs machining to accept the idler bearing.

    I think I've finally decided I'll never have enough excuses to buy a lathe and learn to use it, much as I'd like to.

    The belt grip wasn't enough, but worth a try I guess. The squealing is only on accelerating from idle when the AC had been running at idle; if you turn the AC on at 2500 rpm engine speed it just kicks in perfectly - inertia issue I guess. I'm 99.9% sure it is the compressor belt not the others.

    We will see.... This will give me a 5-belt CX!

    We will see.....
    JohnW

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  9. #34
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    'Chain & Drives' in Wangara have a range of double belt pulleys - exactly what I need once the centre has been bored out, the boss turned down a bit and the five bolt holes are drilled to fasten it on. As usual, It's yet another interesting shop to browse the other stuff. Ardello Engineering off Orrong Road, Welshpool is doing my wee bit of machining tomorrow - impressive medium-sized workshop and apparently there for years, strongly recommended to me. Similarly, a new smaller pulley needs machining to accept the idler bearing.

    I think I've finally decided I'll never have enough excuses to buy a lathe and learn to use it, much as I'd like to.

    The belt grip wasn't enough, but worth a try I guess. The squealing is only on accelerating from idle when the AC had been running at idle; if you turn the AC on at 2500 rpm engine speed it just kicks in perfectly - inertia issue I guess. I'm 99.9% sure it is the compressor belt not the others.

    We will see.... This will give me a 5-belt CX!

    We will see.....
    see if you can go small serpentine belt if your buying new pulleys .........................
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    see if you can go small serpentine belt if your buying new pulleys .........................
    Thanks for that. I agree. If I'd had the sense to post here before I started, and had done a bit more early thinking, I'd have a new compressor with the right pulley end for exactly that, as also suggested by robmac. I hadn't remembered the belt squeal, since the AC hadn't worked for a while. Bugger. So I accidentally committed to vee belts. I expect two of them will fix the problem - one really looks (and sounds) light on for the job.
    JohnW

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  11. #36
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    Have the double pulleys, now struggling with vee belt lengths (falling between two stools) and the short range of tightening possible with the factory jockey wheel system.

    More to report in a day or two!!! Either I'll find a size that works or I'll shift the jockey wheel pivot away from the main pulleys, towards the radiator and down (the latter to avoid the top radiator hose). The Pollyanna in me thinks it is nearly solved..... My wife's view of my optimism is not quite the same.

    I did investigate the CX unofficial Facebook page, and got a very interesting response from an owner in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia). He's converted several of these to drive the AC directly from the camshaft output, not via the water pump, and that makes a lot of sense, albeit a solution more complex than I'm prepared or competent enough to tackle. He commented that the standard AC on the cars sent to Malaysia wasn't much good - no arguments from me there after some decades of tropical work experience!!

    Cheers
    JohnW

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  12. #37
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    Getting there. With a 5" twin groove pulley and a 2 1/2" jockey wheel, also double groove, the A11 0760 belt by Dayco is exactly right for getting sensible tension without fouling the top radiator hose. The standard 3" jockey wheel is two big to accommodate a wider two-groove item under the top hose. None of the 13 mm belt sizes fit (mine used to run a 13A 0800 belt). The next size down is 775, far too short even with the smaller jockey wheel- unless I make up a new mounting plate for the jockey wheel pivot location. But the 13 mm grooves are quite deep enough to accept 11 mm belts too, giving a wider range of length options. The profile is OK and there is 3-4 mm clearance under the belt in the groove space.

    Now to get a second belt..... Report to follow.
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    JohnW

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  13. #38
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    Water pump in CX is rather fragile from memory so please try not to overtighten

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Well, it seems to be behaving with a wee spray of CRC Belt Grip, so that belt was just on the point of gripping.

    It looks to be as if the AC belt pulleys are 12 mm (about 1/2") to correspond with the Sanden compressor, and measure up a couple of mm wider than the alternator and hydraulic pump pulleys.

    Yes, I can see that very slight misalignment of the idler pulley - need to shim out the drive pulley about 1 mm.

    We'll see how it goes. I have very little latitude with the tensioner position, given the geometry of the setup. I reckon the easiest approach to achieve less tightness at the end of the water pump shaft will be to set up a double V-belt drive pulley of the original (smaller) diameter, improving the 'gearing' and accepting slightly lower compressor revs. Slightly lower revs are not going to matter since the system now works so well, although I can see why the previous owner would have made that change 12-15 years ago.

    Does anyone have any spare pulleys?

    I agree the multigroove approach has a lot going for it, but I'll start with the simpler, double-vee given I've just paid for a new compressor with the V-belt drive.

    All comments very much appreciated. I've discovered a bewildering array of v-belts, that is for sure. Must ring the blokes in Victoria on Monday and have a chat.

    Cheers
    Just had a look at the pics on this post. I have to note that it is different from my '78 installation in a number of ways. Firstly I still have the air-pump and its associated bracketry to support the tension roller. The second is that mine runs two belts off the front of the water pump and thirdly my tension roller acts on the outside of the belts not up from under as in your picture. This last difference has the effect of making the belt wrap around more of the water-pump pulley and the compressor pulley and with two belts there is more than twice the belt contact area. My belts do not slip!
    As your compressor already has a two groove drive pulley it would not be hard two match this with a two groove water pump pulley. After all they both bolt on with six set screws!
    Oops silly me I just realised that your pulley only has five set screws!
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    Cheers Gerry

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    As your compressor already has a two groove drive pulley it would not be hard two match this with a two groove water pump pulley. After all they both bolt on......
    Exactly.....
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidd View Post
    Water pump in CX is rather fragile from memory so please try not to overtighten
    Exactly.....
    JohnW

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  17. #42
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    Woo Hoo! All is well. Double belt system is up and running perfectly, so far....

    I'd better post in the technical area, so I'll do that now.

    CX AC belt squeal fixed
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails CX AC query and request-double-belt-ac-finished-jan-2018.jpg  
    Last edited by JohnW; 11th January 2018 at 09:58 PM.
    JohnW

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