C5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help! Please...
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Thread: C5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help! Please...

  1. #1
    UFO
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    Icon9 C5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help! Please...

    I decided before Xmas to bravely (foolishly perhaps) attach the vibration under braking problem that we've been having with the C5 more. The recent gearbox mount replacement only partially fixed it. Turns out the true cause of the problem is the silent-bloc bush at the rear of the lower suspension arm - it sits basically underneath the driver's feet (RHS) and passenger feet (LHS).

    I read this thread on FCF and thought I'd be OK to proceed. It was all going well, got the arm off without much challenge, getting the inner core from the old and completely stuffed bush off was a little challenging, but a good soak in "Nut Cracker" and judicious use of a hydraulic press got it moving. Fitting the new bush and block was challenging as the lower arm is curved and getting it to sit straight enough to get the new bush pushing down the shaft was somewhat challening. Fortunately Mrs UFO was helpful and has a better eye and more patience. We eventually got the bush on. I refitted the arm to the subframe and that's when I discovered all was not as good as it seems.

    The CV joint on the RHS driveshaft has "popped" and this resulted in the arm's bolt holes being about 50mm from the outer edge of the corresponding holes in the hub. It was also evident that the inner CV joint boot had moved too as it was no longer concertina style. The outer joint is OK and still concertinaed.

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    Anyway I realised that there was no way in hell I was going to get the CV joint to pop back in. It would "feel" like it was in, but I now realise that the rollers were only resting against the outer edges of the hub and not pushed into the hub. I then worked out how to remove the hub completely so that I could extract the driveshaft. Oh what fun that was...

    I could not easily slide the boot off the CV joint as its factory band was tighter than. Knowing that I have copious quantities of Ligarex I deftly cut the retaining band so that I could see inside the joint. Which I have done. Anyone want some runny grease?....

    It seems that no amount of coercion or "gently persuasion" will force the CV joint back together. Is there a knack? Am I up shit creek sans paddle?

    Any clues please?

    BTW - in the meantime, the C5 is on stands in the driveway (flat drive) and fortunately the C4 is parked on the footpath.

    This is day 2 of the adventure and I am well and truly stuffed.

    Mrs UFO keeps hinting "put it on a truck and send it to Continental" but the car is nose in with no FR wheel of course, and even getting it on a nearly flat flat-bed I imagine would be very difficult. If it was nose out maybe easier. Besides I think the CC workshop is closed for well deserved holidays.

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    COL
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    Don't you just hate it when this sort of thing happens, not familiar with your car Craig but found this, not sure if it helps

    https://nexus-fix.blogspot.com.au/p/...c5-2001-2.html
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    Regards Col

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    COL
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    Also found this thread.

    Cv boot replacement C5 X7.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1976 Renault R12 Station Wagon
    1995 Renault Laguna V6
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    David S will know. No doubt the joint has pulled apart and you have 1/2 million needle bearings floating around in the boot. DO NOT try and force it back together. Whip the joint apart and re-assemble/grease as appropriate. put something under the thing so you don't loose any needle bearings (if they exist).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    PS: You just reminded me how much I hate GS driveshafts .... and why I like the simple CX joints.
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    So, you have changed the rear bush on the control arm. Was the aluminium extrusion the same as the one you removed? There are differences and not all will suit your car. The main variation is the subframe type, earlier X7 and C6 being aluminium and later cars usually having steel. Your car will have the aluminium subframe. So, the mounting is then different. Some mounts sold as suiting the C5/C6 are too short and leave the back of the arm a little lower, which is why you need to ensure you get the correct extruded section. The bush is not separately serviced by PSA and they expect you to buy a new control arm.

    There are apparently three types of driveshaft: GKN, PSA, NTN. There should be some marking on a sticker. If the outer CV has come off the shaft, then it is probably the PSA/NTN type with a snap ring to retain it. The GKN outer joint apparently doesn't come apart and if changing the boot, you have to remove the inner joint and slide it down the shaft. To refit the wheel side joint to the shaft you fit a hose clip to compress the snap ring, knock the parts together and remove the clip that will have slipped along the shaft. See picture:
    C5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-x7_driveshaft_outer_snapring.jpg
    The snap ring is under the clip in that picture. The yellow tool is a slide hammer. Ideally, you'd replace the snap ring.

    At the gearbox / inner end, the spider should just slip into the housing on all types. Is it just air inside the gaiter making it seem hard to locate? They can act a little like a bladder. On the RHS shaft you also have the intermediate bearing. Has this ben displaced?

    Note the PSA shaft does not let you remove the inner spider, so changing the boot requires it to be slipped down from the wheel end of the shaft. Like the GKN shaft in reverse. The others retain the spider with a circlip.

    I'm not entirely sure what is inside the joints. However, if you have pulled the inner joint out and cannot reseat it correctly, check there is not a displaced a spring inside the joint. On some earlier cars built about 2006, a spring and cup in the inner joint could pop out if the driveshaft angle was excessive and they could then be trapped and crushed. in those earlier joints the cup was found to be too shallow, but since you may have pulled the shaft outwards, it may have slipped out anyway. Vibrations then resulted because the joint could not move fully.
    Last edited by David S; 30th December 2017 at 05:05 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    Can't help much here, except to say that the easiest way to remove the back front bottom arm bush is to cut it off with a small angle grinder. You don't have to go right through the inner bush, say 3/4, and give the bush a tap with a cold chisel and hammer, it should split.

    Make sure you clean up any marks on the arm itself.

    Note:

    The bush has to go on in exactly the same position as the old one so that when the car is at normal height, the rubber in the bush isn't stressed.

    Driveshaft boots today seem to last about the life of the car, in the days of late DS's, GS's and CX's it was a constant job changing the boots.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    To say that this unexpected job is giving me the shits would be an understatement. It also makes me feel like an idiot for attempting the initial job. Lessons being learned here...

    Anyway, I sourced a replacement inner boot kit from REPCO yesterday (half price sale - bonus) and it comes with the clamps and grease, however I started this morning and can not physically progress any further towards getting this thing back together. Maybe I am overthinking it?

    The situation is that there is nothing grinding/catching when I rotate the shaft on the bench or in my hands. There is certainly a strong spring felt if I try to push the two halves together and the spider and rollers will not stay inside the cup, they just push back out to the point where you can see in pics below where my thumb is holding back the current boot. I also, as David suggested, cannot separate the inner joint. In the interests of not stuffing up further, I have NOT removed the outer joint. I have also not tried to force the joint apart.

    It "seems" that if I was able to get the complete shaft back in, replace the hub and get it all to bolt together that the forces should/would just hold it together, but that also doesn't make a lot of sense as I can see that it may just (dramatically) fail. Even if this was the solution (which I doubt) I do not have the strength to get it all together and have no other assistance in the area. Mrs UFO is not capable of providing that help.

    Can anyone offer advice please? It is getting seriously close to somehow being flatbedded to Punchbowl.

    C5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-1.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-2.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-3.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-4.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-5.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-7.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-6.jpgC5 X7 RHS driveshaft - CV joint - help!  Please...-c5x7-rhs-dshaft-8.jpg

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    COL
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    Hi Craig

    I feel your pain.

    The only advice I can give you is take the drive shaft to a CV Joint service centre and let the put the thing back together along with the new boot. and then re-install the shaft yourself.

    Or if this is really giving you the shits put the car back together minus the drive shaft, call the flat bed company and ship it off to Punchbowl. The flat bed company wont care which way the car is around as they will winch it on right up to the cab of the truck.

    Sorry can't give any advice as what to do with the drive shaft itself.
    Regards Col

    1973 Renault R12 Station Wagon
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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Craig,

    I've just downloaded the procedure from Citroen to remove the driveshafts, and to replace the boots.

    There is nothing special about the procedure.

    I had problems with our red wagon with particularly the L/H drive shaft. The springs and cup in the inner joints are there to actually hold the drive shaft in the gearbox. On the CX it was a compressed circlip, but the circlip would wear a lip, and sometimes it was impossible to remove the L/H driveshaf from the differentialt.

    So on the C5 the input shaft is held inside the differential by the compression of that spring.

    Why the spring and cup is necessary on the R/H side I'm not sure, as the inner shaft is held in the differential by the inner shaft outer bearing and locked in place at the bearing housing.

    The spring and cup on the inner joint is held in place by the driveshaft boot. When the boot is fitted, it will be in a stretched condition.

    When the shaft is refitted and compressed and the outer joint fitted into the hub, the boot will be in a non compress condition.

    The outer joint is held in place simply by a circlip. The outer section of the shaft is placed in a vice with soft jaws, and while the impact puller is ideal, a hit at the centre where the shaft enters the joint with a blunt cold chisel or copper drift and hammer will release the out joint from the shaft. This is just standard practise for all of Citroen's driveshafts.

    The whole procedure is really just a one man job.

    Hope this all helps.

    I've downloaded the pages from Citroen and printed them out, but not sure how to but them on a post?

    Best regards,

    Greg
    UFO and COL like this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    Thanks Greg - excellent information. If you tried to "print" the information again, you should be able to choose Adobe PDF as your "printer" You would then get the prompt on the computer's task bar (at the bottom of the screen) asking you to give it a file name and location. I would typically chose "desktop" and name such as "C5 driveshaft". It will then generate a PDF file that you may be able to upload - or even email to me (PM coming with email address).

    Cheers

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Craig,

    More info.........

    If the driveshafts are GKN, there should be a label an the driveshaft, then the outer constant velocity joint can't be removed from the shaft, you need to dismantle the inner joint and remove the Triaxe (like on a DS). The triaxe is splined to the driveshaft, and there is a circlip, to remove.

    Citroen just say to put the shaft in a soft jaw vice and knock the spider or triaxe off the shaft with a hammer and pin punch. The is will now allow you to replace the outer boot.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    COL likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Craig,

    Yes, saved them as you said...... I've learnt something now as well. This is Aussie Frogs working as it should!

    Best regards,

    Greg
    COL and Kenfuego like this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  13. #13
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    Thanks. Received and printed.

    Cheers

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    I wasn't sure which joint you were saying had 'popped', but it's now clear you meant the inner one. If present, the spring will be inside the inner joint to keep everything under some preload. It's not even mentioned by the factory notes or parts lists. The layout doesn't look to be any more complicated than Greg suggests. They may have decided a spring was necessary due to some feature of the outer joint and suspension layout.

    Looking at a pair of XM driveshafts (where you can remove the outer joints that are retained by a circlip), the LH inner joint has a spring (fairly easily compressed), but the RH clearly doesn't. Given you've now removed the driveshaft, it would be prudent to slide the spider out of the housing and refit to make sure the spring and cup are not displaced. You can then get an idea of the spring strength and judge whether it should be easy or difficult to compress the assembled joint by hand.

    I guess your gearbox will getting an unscheduled partial oil change too!

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    you need to pull the joint completelly apart and look inside the socket side to see what is going on. The star hasn't moved down the shaft due to a missing snap ring that should retain it has it No point playing around, pull it apart so you can see how it works... once you understand how something works, you can usually ( LOL ) fix it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    David,

    The auto gearboxes don't release oil like the manuals do. The differential output shafts are sealed on the autos rather than the driveshafts.

    Cheers, Ken
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    Thank you everyone for your advice. Especially Col for the links, David for advice and Greg for emailing me the PDFs that made things a whole heap clearer.

    After stressing about this for the last couple of days, I got up this morning, had some breakky (and coffee) and got stuck into the job. Fortunately the rain has stopped and there was a nice cool breeze. I also have to do most work before midday as afterwards the sun is overhead and our driveway and house face west...

    Anyway, I checked the inner joint and all looked to be clean with no rub marks, grazes, nicks or any bits of metal in the grease. I then made sure the boot was properly aligned with its flats and grooves, packed in some more joint grease and put a wide ligarex strap around it. A good clean of the shaft surfaces was also required as the leaking grease was everywhere.

    I got the work area ready (tools in trays and stuff on the driveway) took the shaft out (with some tranny oil on the gearbox end) fed the shaft in and bolted the retainer in (the flat plate retainer held by a couple of hex bolts is SO much better than the L bolts of BX, XM, Xantia era).

    I then cleaned the surfaces where the hub had to remount to and gently fed the top ball joint into the top of the hub, the outer of the shaft into the hub and the bottom plate almost fell into place as I gently pushed it all inwards, and most importantly the inner boot concertinaed as the joint "mated".

    It was then just a matter of slow and steady reassembly of all the bits, including brake disk, backing plate, pads, caliper etc. I was nearing the end and did a "bits and pieces" stocktake to find that there was a large nut remaining. OH SHIT! That's the upper ball joint nut! Fortunately I was able to feed the nut up, turn the steering to the right and get that nut tight with a ring spanner! PHEW!

    Put the spare wheel on, lowered the right side to the ground, tightened the hub nut, remove spare wheel, install security cap thing and R clip, mount proper wheel, replace undertray etc etc.

    The car is back on the ground but not driven yet. Will do so this afternoon.

    I expect it may require a wheel alignment after all this ****arkling with the steering and suspension.

    I think the left side bush installation will be undertaken by a professional.
    Last edited by UFO; 1st January 2018 at 05:24 PM.
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    In further news, I just moved the car so it was not blocking the driveway. During the move Mrs UFO stood outside the car while I tentatively moved it back and forth and few metres and turned the steering etc. That all went well so I took it for a lap of the block and arrived home drama-less. The slow speed "clunk" when braking seems to have gone but the final test will be tomorrow when I take it for a run and see if the other wobble has gone. I'll also check the steering is tracking true.

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    Phew. I think I'd better wish you the best for 2018. I've just looked at where Gerringong is and now understand your desire to do the job at home.

    Sounds as if you might have it sorted. It's often the same for a one-off job - be easy the second time when you have 'the knowledge'. Often, there's no second time!

    Cheers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Can't help much here, except to say that the easiest way to remove the back front bottom arm bush is to cut it off with a small angle grinder. You don't have to go right through the inner bush, say 3/4, and give the bush a tap with a cold chisel and hammer, it should split.

    Make sure you clean up any marks on the arm itself.

    Note:

    The bush has to go on in exactly the same position as the old one so that when the car is at normal height, the rubber in the bush isn't stressed.

    Driveshaft boots today seem to last about the life of the car, in the days of late DS's, GS's and CX's it was a constant job changing the boots.

    Best regards,

    Greg

    This is the professional way, quick and effective. Remember it and keep your hair and save your marriage.
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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Craig,

    Be confident, you've done well!

    There are two types of people in the world, professionals and amateurs, often doing the same job, and often badly......There are more than a few professionals, that worked in an abattoir in a prior life. There are a few even practising today!

    They are both cable of stuffing up badly, but professionals tend to blame something else that caused the problem?

    I remember being half way through replacing the complete front end structure on our red C5 wagon (it was a repairable right off), and thinking how the hell did I get involved in this, but it's very easy when you have your eyes so close to the job to be too hard on your self, and not see the big picture. When they build a body shell today, and its faulty, they crush it. In the old days, they used a big rubber hammer to belt it till it fitted.

    I have a very big rubber hammer still (ROFLOL).

    Best regards,

    Greg
    UFO likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  22. #22
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    All pros were amateurs The difference is learning from mistakes, and not doing it again.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    All pros were amateurs The difference is learning from mistakes, and not doing it again.
    Either ever or at least making sure you get it right 2nd (and subsequent) time(s) around.

    In further good news, we took the car out this afternoon for further testing including a blat down the highway near home (we can take a northern entrance to the Princes Hwy, double back and blat down to the southern entrance to Gerringong). It all worked perfectly.


    Group hugs

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    I have to laugh in empathy. The first time I saw a joint do this it scared the bejesuz out of me and I also thought 'how the heck do I fix this' ? !

    Glad to hear it all worked out for you.

    Cheers

    Justin
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  25. #25
    UFO
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    CitroŽn Tragic UFO's Avatar
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    Yes, those are the exact same words I muttered.

    Sort of....

    Sounded something like "heck" anyway and had the same amount of letters.

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