C5 Gearbox Oil
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Thread: C5 Gearbox Oil

  1. #1
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    Icon9 C5 Gearbox Oil

    There seems to be a mystery about the correct brand of oil for the AF6 auto gearbox. I have a 2010/11 C5 Hdi. Although there is a belief that the 'box is "sealed for life", the handbook reccomends a change at 65,000 which is what I had done. I had the recommended grade of FS Penrite put in, and shortly after noticed that the gearbox would occasionally "flare" on upward changes between 3rd and 4th. It doesn't do it often, maybe a couple of times a month, or less. I mentioned this to Eurocare in Perth last week where the C5 had its 100,000k service. They told me that another customer had reported the same thing after he had replaced the original oil with Penrite too. Eurocare uses whatever Citroen recommends, but it seems very difficult to find out what that is. I assume it is made by Total, and its website shows two oils: Fluide XLD FE and Total Fluidmatic MV, as being suitable, although the sheet when downloaded mentions neither Citroens nor Peugeots.
    Does any AussieFrogger know what oil is the official one to use.

    I gather that the AF6 'box is used in Mondeos, Saabs, Volvos and some Toyotas and Mazdas, but they all seem to use different oils from the one Citroen does. Curious.

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  2. #2
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    I had a dealer transmission service using the genuine fluid recently and since then get similar symptoms to what you get, except that it occurs about once a day (when transmission nearly warmed up). The service was at 70k, but the transmission has exhibited rough downchanges and other symptoms since 40k (and under warranty).

    From telephone discussions with a transmission specialist, he suggested it may be the (dreaded) valve body problem. I guess that should not surprise, given that Aisin suggest changing the ATF every 2 years or 20,000kms or “car performance will be worsened, more fuel will be consumed and the transmission may be damaged” see page 12 https://www.be.aisin-europe.com/them...ll&bbv=1&pcode=

    C5 Gearbox Oil-aisin.jpg
    Last edited by turnbull151; 28th December 2017 at 10:15 AM.

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    The fluid is made for Aisin Seiki, the transmission maker. It is sold under their own name in some markets, but not here. To get genuine fluid in Australia you will normally need to get it from a dealer of one of the makes that use the AM6 transmission, alias AWTF-80SC. Mostly very expensive.

    It is used in other Aisin manufactured transmissions also, and of these the least expensive dealer here is Toyota. Since some US cars have the Aisin transmission some oil companies there claim to meet the Japanese spec, like Mobil. These fluids are hard to find here.

  4. #4
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    I don't own one of these cars, but I have found the following web site for Exedy who are the Australian distributor for Aisin.

    Aisin Lubricants ? EXEDY No.1 for Clutch

    May be worth checking out further.
    Regards Col

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    Allen,

    There are lots of AM6 users who have used the Penrite FS ATF in their auto boxes without any problems. I think it is a much better oil that the one Citroen used in the initial fillup on my auto as I havn't had the degradation in change quality that I was having as I approached my first 4 litre oil changeover at 60000km. Maybe I was lucky and got an oil changeover into the box before too much damage was done to the valve block. I am now at 160000 and I have only ever had one flare incident in all that time.

    Cheers, Kenneth

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    The Penrite oil isn't the problem......... I've used Nulon Multipurpose full synthetic AT oil in all our AM6 cars, and changed it every 40,000 or so and never a problem. The old Red Wagon is now on 300,000K on Nulon, and changes faultlessly.

    You should also not that the gearbox on late X7's with a 3 litre diesel, or the 2.2 use a low friction AT fluid, but I know at least one (ex) dealer that just uses the Penrite.

    The problem is the valve body, and only replacing it will solve the problem. I gather it not a big job? just big bucks!

    Best regards,

    Greg
    turnbull151 likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  7. #7
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    For what it's worth.

    An episode with another brand of vehicle led me to an automatic transmission specialist who fixed a 6 speed AW box, I then sold the vehicle so I can't vouch for the ongoing performance. Shortly after that a fellow CCCQ club member complained about the behaviour of 6 speed in his 2006 C5 2lt diesel. I drove the car and is was really bad. Flaring on 2-3 and 3-4 changes and thumping badly on most changes. We took his car to the afore mentioned and after a couple of days he got it back driving perfectly and at a cost of $1500.00.

    The storey as told by the ATS bloke is that somebody is reconditioning the valve bodies, replaces the valves, and fits at least one modified valve. They say that the problem is that the velves are teflon coated and that the coating fails causing the valves to become stickey.

    Is it possible that a change of oil type could be causing the coating to soften ?


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    There has been discussion of the teflon in other threads. My understanding is the solenoid valve bores are coated, and that in time this wears. I don't know if the fluid choice has any part.

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    Does anyone know if using something like the following is a proposition? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatic...IAAOSw32lYtYi2

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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Does anyone know if using something like the following is a proposition? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatic...IAAOSw32lYtYi2
    The compatibility chart shows a positive for all 2008 - 2012 variants we see. Good price at $794.00 plus express post $26.00.

    Cheers
    Chris
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  11. #11
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    Don't forget there are two issues here. Valve bore wear and sticky electrovalves. They are different faults. 2-3 hot upchange flaring is one of the common faults hat might point towards valve block wear. The commercially sensible repair is preferably to replace the valve block as you can't be sure where the next weakest hydraulic part will be. Sonnax has good information about this gearbox and offers tools and parts, but it's really not viable for a single DIY repair. There are some suggestions the person who likes to play can tweak the valve adjusters via speedo cables through a temporary drilled pan to compensate for valve bore wear.

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    I don't own one of these cars, but I have found the following web site for Exedy who are the Australian distributor for Aisin.

    Aisin Lubricants ? EXEDY No.1 for Clutch



    Did that. Many thanks for the advice. Very helpful chap at Exedy called Richard Janssen. Aisin do make an oil for the AF6 gearbox, which is known as the Aisin-Warner TF-80SC. The oil for it is Aisin AFW+. He could not confirm that the oil was identical to the one that Citroen/Peugeot uses, which he says is probably made in Europe, but points out that it is the one specifically made by Aisin for the TF-80SC. It can be purchased/ordered in my case from Auto One in Bunbury. Haven't priced it yet.
    Last edited by Allen; 5th January 2018 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Left out the quote

  13. #13
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    Hi Guys,

    I get the feeling that despite all the relevant information, regarding the use of non original oils in the AM6 gearbox, and that they are not the cause of the valve body problems, and it is also not age related, and that it is quite clearly a manufacturing fault, that there are some that still believing that the use of the original Citroen or Aisin oils will cure their problems?

    I can only wonder if those owners still believe the world is flat?

    I can remember thousand of words written about the correct oils for the Citroen AL4 gearbox, and that the problems were all caused by aftermarket oils, which time has shown is definitely not the case.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    jaahn likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  14. #14
    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I get the feeling that despite all the relevant information, regarding the use of non original oils in the AM6 gearbox, and that they are not the cause of the valve body problems, and it is also not age related, and that it is quite clearly a manufacturing fault, that there are some that still believing that the use of the original Citroen or Aisin oils will cure their problems?

    I can only wonder if those owners still believe the world is flat?

    I can remember thousand of words written about the correct oils for the Citroen AL4 gearbox, and that the problems were all caused by aftermarket oils, which time has shown is definitely not the case.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Replace a few words with Dexron 2 and ZFHP18 etc and it's the same old same old...
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Does anyone know if using something like the following is a proposition? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatic...IAAOSw32lYtYi2


    Has anyone here actually gone down this route ?
    I have just Emailed the Ebay UK seller with VIN for my second nose C5.
    I imagine a new filter and pan gasket will be required too ... if so what have the sources been ? Does this auto HAVE a filter internally ? My local automatic man is hesitant to touch the C5 ( once bitten with a Peugeot 306 .. I know different situation and a ZF box ), but I am sure he is capable of removing and replacing ( if not sourcing ) the valve body assembly. The gearbox at 130Ks and 3 batches of new oil in its life ( one flush and two drain and refill - done twice procedures ) has become SOMETIMES unpredictable. Being a diesel it uses a very light throttle opening and while it can be driven around with a change of driver habit, to prevent the flared 2-3 changes and sometimes clunky 3-4 change ..... ie harder use, or used in SPORT mode, both of those are impractical for regular suburban duties. There are heaps of stories on the WWW about the Volvo experience with this box but mostly from the US. The car is just too good to flick and what is more it fits Granny's wheely walker in the boot.

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    Yes, just ordered one for Denton Christies (European Auto's) wife's Picasso. Too good to pass up, and will solve all the problems (?).

    It's not a big job to fit the new valve body.

    Will come back with an update after it arrives.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  17. #17
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    Email the seller direct - it may be cheaper - https://www.onestopgearboxshop.com/c...ducts/v3autodd

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Yes, just ordered one for Denton Christies (European Auto's) wife's Picasso. Too good to pass up, and will solve all the problems (?).

    It's not a big job to fit the new valve body.

    Will come back with an update after it arrives.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Interesting news. I have just received an Email from the UK Ebay supplier of the valve body.

    I asked about availability of the internal fluid filter and pan gasket. They are only able to supply the gasket.
    Greg, do you have another source of filter and gasket or other parts for a valve body replacement ? Or are you able to supply these ?

    Thanks

  19. #19
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    May I suggest that you have at talk to "Bill" at Lubrication Management in Camberwell Vic. He is the an oil distributor for Amsoil in Australia and a fellow Citroen owner. The Web site is - lubricationmanagement.com.au. Bill is extremely helpful and is prepared to ship product by mail. He recently tracked down oil for my Xantia auto box ... Dextron something. I'm not sure enough of the correct name to quote it here. I have been using Amsoil oil since the car was run in, now over 160000km and the motor runs like a swiss watch .. or at least the frog equivalent. As others have suggested, it may need a tear down and rebuild by an auto-trans specialist.
    I had to go down that track myself just on 12 months ago. Expensive, but gave new life to the car... well worth it, and after 20 years and 160K, one can't really complain. Good luck with fixing your problem.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I did reply to the previous question, but for some reason it didn't get posted.

    Anyway, Denton's valve body turned up last Monday week, after having been ordered the previous Thursday, so can't complain about the service from the UK.

    I've looked at the parts catalogue, and there are no service items like a filter you talk about, and there is no valve body gasket, it part of the pan, so that make changing pretty easy.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    electroboy likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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