2CV Gearbox Adventures
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Thread: 2CV Gearbox Adventures

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Default 2CV Gearbox Adventures

    Some of the more observant of you may have noticed I've been very quiet of late. This is because I've been somewhat involved in sourcing and rebuilding a 2CV gearbox.

    Just yesterday I realised I've fallen for a rookie mistake, which, whilst annoying, frustrating, infuriating and maddening, is only to be expected when one is a rookie as far as 2CVs are concerned.

    First the background story. On the Cup Weekend shakedown trip we experienced just about every possible environment that we're realistically likely to encounter in NZ. (Except perhaps fending off wild Kea attack or hordes of enraged Maori warriors. )

    Whilst Gaston behaved pretty much impeccably, I was a little concerned over the amount of "zizz" from the gearbox in the indirect ratios. Yes, I know top gear is also indirect but it doesn't put load on much of the rest of the intermediate gear train. Since this "zizz" is always associated, in my experience at least, with wear in layshaft bearings and the like, I figured that if I could obtain another gearbox and recondition it I could simply swap them over and all would be good.

    By the good offices of a couple of fellow Citroen Aficianados I obtained a second hand box of the disc brake persuasion. Inspection showed it may have ingested a bit of moisture at some stage but looked pretty good nonetheless.

    I was able to source many of the bearings and seals locally but the roller bearings are bespoke so they were imported, as was a new secondary shaft as the end of this where it runs in the roller bearing inside the end of the primary shaft is a bit chatty.

    At the end of the acquisition phase the only bearings I've been unable to obtain so far are the front and rear pinion shaft bearings. One is out of stock in Europe and unavailable here as far as I can tell, and the other may still be on its way, but the originals check out OK and cleaned up perfectly.

    So far, so good.

    Last night I finished assembling and checking the box with all the new bits on board, selectors and diff clearances adjusted, spring that flew across the garage to who knows where replaced (!), covers sealed with silicone and oil circulated throughout.

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    Step forward Murphy and call me a rookie! The bloody input shaft on this box is the short spline variety for the early clutch and flywheel and/or centrifugal jobby. I have the later, long spline requiring, diaphragm clutch on Gaston!

    Did I notice this before? Of course not!

    Did anyone hear the gale of profanity issuing from an Eltham garage last night?

    At this stage I'm planning on carefully removing the input shaft from Gaston's current gearbox and replacing it in the reconditioned box, after fitting it out with a new input bearing of course. At least I'm now familiar with the sequence of dismantling and mantling. The annoying part of this is that time is running out and I won't have a bolt in replacement on hand in case the rebuild isn't up to scratch. (Yeah, I'd like to think I'm doing a proper job but Murphy pops up now and then!)

    Ah well, I guess it's all part of the learning curve and this one has flattened out a bit but is still giving my brain a workout!

    Once it's all sorted, the swearing has stopped, and Gaston no longer Zizzing, I'll publish a few piccies and a definitive list of replacement parts available here in Melbourne.

    Until then, Cheers, Pottsy.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    That must have been the odd noise we heard from the east, over the Darling Range....

    Many readers will understand the feeling.

    Good luck with the timing of it all!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Just make sure you put the diff in the right side as well. Yes it has been done with the result being lots of reverse gears. I always thought you had to have matching helical gears if you wanted a 'quiet' gearbox. it might be easier to replace the clutch plate with an older style one.

    Cheers, Ken

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    Pottsy,
    it might be worth counting the teeth on the input shaft pinions, just to be sure that the gearboxes you've got are both 2CV type.
    The odds may be long, but given how often gearboxes in these cars seem to have been transplanted over the years, a Dyane/Ami input shaft with 20 teeth on its pinion wouldn't work too well as a replacement for a 2CV's 19 teeth.

    Other than that, I've known short-spline gearboxes to work just fine for road use when mated to the later type of clutch.
    Granted that there's a reduction in the length of spline engagement, but all that seems to affect is a small increase in the chances of clutch judder occurring.

    As regards the strength, we used 2CV4/Dyane4 short spline gearboxes mated to light flywheel/diaphragm type clutches for many years in the 2CV racing series, without any failures that I heard of.
    If anything, the lining being ripped off a brand new clutch driven plate at Mallory Park during a particularly hard fought sprint session could be described as the ultimate test of the strength of that splined connection...

    p.s. Mantling? Reckon I've done a fair bit of that...

    2CV racing season incoming, so it's time to install some gearbox input shaft seals. by slcchassis, on Flickr
    Last edited by Ken H; 8th December 2017 at 06:41 AM.

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Thanks blokes. I feel encouraged at least a bit.

    Ken H, I was hoping your voice of experienced reason would ring out.

    So the short spline can be used with the diaphragm clutch. That's good news indeed. Certainly the spline size is correct as confirmed by trying the old driven plate on there. I'm interested to see just how much of the short spline is encompassed by the plate when in situ. As you say, the test of strength seems to be proven.

    I was hoping to avoid any stripping of the original box until after the NZ adventure, so I'm encouraged to continue the project now as originally planned. Having the original complete and working, albeit slightly 'zizzy', as a plan B will ease my mind somewhat.

    I've had the top cover off the original to do the staking mod, but didn't count teeth at all. I take the point that lots of swapping and "upgrading" can happen with these cars and given the unknown history of the car before coming to Australia that's quite a possibility.

    Time to whip the noisy bits out and do some bench swapping I reckon. At the very least I'll whip the lid off and check the teeth on the original input shaft, just for fun. Down the track I'll do the same bearing replacements on the original as well, just not before we've galloped around New Zealand, hopefully reliably.

    Thanks for your knowledge, and the willingness to share it.

    Ken W, once I observed that the diff could go either way and realised I hadn't taken a photo of it in the original spot, I had a brief moment of panic until I read that the diff is positioned over the drain hole so I relaxed again. (Shades of the old jokes about Italian tanks perhaps? )

    If these cars weren't so scarce over here I'd be keen to start up a 2CV racing series. From videos on the goggle box it looks like a heap of fun. I'll just have to keep getting my "need for speed" fix by throwing my Mini around whenever the opportunity arises!

    Oh, and while re-mantling would be perhaps more correct it doesn't seem to be an exact opposite. English is supposed to be a Living Language so if we can't play with it now and then 'twould be a poor show! (Liz at 90 odd is hardly likely to yell at me for tampering with Her English anyway! )

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Last edited by pottsy; 8th December 2017 at 05:53 PM. Reason: typo
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  6. #6
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    Default The Adventure Continues

    Well, to steal a line from one John Finnemore, English comic writer, of late I have been a "Rabbit of Negative Euphoria". This translates to "Not a Happy Bunny". What has caused this you ask? How about a broken bell housing?

    When we last met I was about to embark upon the re-installation of my nicely rebuilt spare gearbox, albeit with a short spline input shaft. All augured well for a straightforward assembly of engine and gearbox and Gaston could then be fully mantled in time for a bit of Christmas Cruising.

    Bloody Murphy stepped in, again! Sorry about this long post, but I feel the need to enlighten you all.

    To refresh the memory cells, I ascertained that the short spline shaft apparently would fit in place of the long spline. I measured things and all looked good.

    I had the motor sitting on the bench and suspended the gearbox beside it ready for insertion. So far, so good. A couple of goes to get the shaft lined up in the spline were had, but all seemed OK. It was all a bit tighter than I would have liked, but I put that down to the locating (alignment?) bushes being very tight so I gradually turned each attachment nut in turn and the gearbox inched its way onto the motor.

    After a lot of jiggling, engaging of gears and wiggling of the output shafts, the thing was still very reluctant to slide on properly. Then disaster struck.

    As an aside, have you ever given thought to the amount of force made available by the tightening of a 10mm fine thread bolt? Neither had I!

    With a sickening crack the top right hand corner of the bell housing simply broke off. Yes, you probably heard another loud burst of profanity from NE Melbourne again!

    After a good old fashioned verbal vent, a couple of beers and a walk away for a while, I then proceeded to ascertain why this had happened. Naturally I blamed my hamfisted self, but having conducted many gearboxes into conjugation with an equal number of engines in the past, I was at a loss to be sure just what it was that I'd done wrong.

    A Post Mortem examination, after dismantling the newly rebuilt gearbox, was even more confusing. Despite the fact that the original clutch plate was a gentle slide onto the short spline shaft, the very same shaft would simply not enter the new driven plate mounted on the flywheel. So off came the clutch from the flywheel and all was revealed.

    The gearbox end of the driven plate spline was monstered and burred by the sharp end of the short spline on the replacement input shaft. One of the first attempts at matching the box to the motor must have resulted in the initial damage and from then on there was no way the spline would enter the clutch so as I was tightening the four bolts I was simply gradually pushing the bell housing out of shape and ending in the breakage.

    To be fair, there was no way I could have known this had happened, but maybe I also should have checked everything a bit more when it was difficult to engage the shaft in the clutch.

    So anyway, the original gearbox has now been dis and re mantled and the new parts installed therein. Careful checks, after some remedial work on the clutch spline with a small file, showed that the input shaft, now the original long spline jobby, was a lovely gentle sliding fit, facilitated by the slight taper machined into the leading edge of the shaft spline. (No such taper on the short spline, it's cut square!)

    The rebuilt gearbox re-united gently, smoothly and joyfully with the motor this time, but I'll admit to some trepidation as I tightened everything.

    Today I drove Gaston with his lovely quiet gearbox on board and I'm glad I bit that particular bullet as the lack of mechanical zizzing is a delight. I found the input shaft bearing on the original box was the main culprit, but replaced all but one of the bearings anyway, as well as using the new secondary shaft, because I had it. My only concern so far is that the synchro into top gear seems to be less than perfect, which is weird as it didn't crunch before. It may be adjustment of the clutch will solve this as it's taking up very close to the floor at present. Worst case is that I maybe stuffed up the positioning of the selector, but I used all the right gauges (made out of brazing rod but the right sizes) to set them. Time will tell I guess.

    Interestingly, the short spline shaft revealed itself to have 19 teeth while the long spline one has 20, so just swapping them wouldn't have worked anyway. Comparison of gear ratios (somewhat empirically by counting revolutions and estimating parts thereof) seems to indicate a lower first two ratios and the same second two. More research needed methinks.

    In the New Year, probably after RAID NZ, I'll have a chat with a cylinder head and TIG welding guru of my aquaintance who will probably be able to re-unite the two parts of the bell housing for future generations to use.

    Herewith a couple of pictures to illustrate my folly.

    Cheers all, Pottsy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2CV Gearbox Adventures-short-spline.jpg   2CV Gearbox Adventures-long-spline.jpg   2CV Gearbox Adventures-damaged-clutch-centre.jpg   2CV Gearbox Adventures-broken-bell-housing.jpg  
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    Great story told with humour. Guess we've all presided over disasters. How did you replace the bell housing?
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    Pottsy,
    well done for persevering in the face of such adversity.

    Anyhow, thought you might have picked this up in a previous post I'd made...

    "The odds may be long, but given how often gearboxes in these cars seem to have been transplanted over the years, a Dyane/Ami input shaft with 20 teeth on its pinion wouldn't work too well as a replacement for a 2CV's 19 teeth."

    Since Christmas is on the way, I've scanned the pages from one of Citroen's manuals which should help you identify any stray pinions found lying around.


    https://www.flickr.com/photos/301328...etaken-friend/
    .
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/301328...etaken-friend/

    Sorry, no holly available for seasonal decoration, blooming blackbirds made a coordinated attack at the weekend when I was away, which even Madam Mistle thrush couldn't repel.
    All four holly bushes stripped bare in 2 days...

    Ken

    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    Interestingly, the short spline shaft revealed itself to have 19 teeth while the long spline one has 20, so just swapping them wouldn't have worked anyway. Comparison of gear ratios (somewhat empirically by counting revolutions and estimating parts thereof) seems to indicate a lower first two ratios and the same second two. More research needed methinks.
    Cheers all, Pottsy.
    Last edited by Ken H; 19th December 2017 at 10:06 AM.

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Thanks Ken, it's a fine line between Perseverance and Perversity.

    Yes I'd picked up on your mention of differences, which is why I counted when the opportunity arrove to check the insides of both boxes simultaneously.

    Actually, I may have the numbers reversed. I may need to refer to (to be honest, find, in the mess my Shed is at present) my notes yeronner.

    Part of me expected the internals to be the same as they're both disc brake boxes, albeit one with the short spline shaft. Does this mean that the spare box came from a car with a Trafficlutch fitted perhaps?

    Given the Hen's Teeth status of 2CV parts generally here Down Under, the chances of a stray input shaft "lying around" would be minimal.

    Slough Man, as per the last para of my epistle (and I understand if you fell asleep beforehand) I'll chase up welding options next year.

    Cheers Chaps, Pottsy.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    Pottsy keep the bell housing surfaces clean. It maybe possible to 'glue' the bits together. The piccies show SFA of material for 'hot work'. Maybe the use of Devcon putty and a bit of artistic sculpting/filing/hammering will net a better result.
    Brendan.

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    JBN
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    Pottsy, if all else fails, you could turn the 2CV into an electric vehicle and dispense with a gearbox.

    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Pottsy, if all else fails, you could turn the 2CV into an electric vehicle and dispense with a gearbox.

    John
    Still need a diff though......... Good candidates, 2CVs, but perhaps not a rare UK one.
    JohnW

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    Great story told with humour indeed!! Bugger! I wouldn't remotely have the skills, but I've seen things like that welded.

    I've used metal epoxy on alloy castings successfully, allied to a sheet of glass for correct alignment. But I guess water pumps are a wee bit less stressed than bellhousings...... A very wide, custom-made washer would help spread the stresses beyond the epoxy line perhaps.

    Christmas greetings of course.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Great story told with humour indeed!! Bugger! I wouldn't remotely have the skills, but I've seen things like that welded.

    I've used metal epoxy on alloy castings successfully, allied to a sheet of glass for correct alignment. But I guess water pumps are a wee bit less stressed than bellhousings...... A very wide, custom-made washer would help spread the stresses beyond the epoxy line perhaps.

    Christmas greetings of course.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Well I’m glad that you have a good, strong and quiet box for the raid. That was the intention and you’ve done it.
    You may now have more bits than you started with but you have the results you sought.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

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    Hi Pottsy
    There would be a learning experience here I guess.
    It would never be a good idea to pull a gearbox into engagement with the studs and you proved why. When it should slide freely into engagement with a bit of verbal encouragement and hand work, stop and see why it does not go in, if it will not go easily. Two persons always helps usually, even if one is only looking at alignment of the faces etc.
    Sorry to be a wet blanket but it has to be said.
    Jaahn
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Pottsy
    There would be a learning experience here I guess.
    It would never be a good idea to pull a gearbox into engagement with the studs and you proved why. When it should slide freely into engagement with a bit of verbal encouragement and hand work, stop and see why it does not go in, if it will not go easily. Two persons always helps usually, even if one is only looking at alignment of the faces etc.
    Sorry to be a wet blanket but it has to be said.
    Jaahn
    Couldn't agree more Jaahn. However, in my defence, the whole assembly did slide neatly into position about 20mm short of "fully on". It's only with the benefit of hindsight that one realises this is because the first part of the input shaft slipped in neatly with no contact in the spline. At that point the centring sleeves were started in their respective positions, hence my belief that it was them providing the resistance and that it would be overcome by the direct impetus of the nuts.

    As I said before, I blame my hamfistedness to a point, but also feel that this was a combination of circumstances I couldn't have predicted.

    Ken. I've checked my notes and confirmed that the original box, now back in the car, has a 19 tooth input shaft (with LOTS of nicely tapered leading edge spline) and the short spline is definitely a 20 tooth jobby. From the specs supplied it seems to be maybe a Dyane or Ami box. Did these come with a Trafficlutch or was the short spline shaft also just used with the earlier clutch assembly and thick flywheel?

    Also measured the thickness of the housing at the break and it's roughly 5mm, with a bit more thickness closer to the boss where the stud goes through. As I said I'll be guided by a TIG expert, one of which I am not.

    And David M, thanks. Knowing me as well as you do, you'd recall that I generally do as Mr Idle suggests.

    Onwards and Upwards Chaps!
    Last edited by pottsy; 20th December 2017 at 07:32 AM.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

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    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Pottsy
    There would be a learning experience here I guess.
    It would never be a good idea to pull a gearbox into engagement with the studs and you proved why. When it should slide freely into engagement with a bit of verbal encouragement and hand work, stop and see why it does not go in, if it will not go easily. Two persons always helps usually, even if one is only looking at alignment of the faces etc.
    Sorry to be a wet blanket but it has to be said.
    Jaahn
    My thoughts precisely!
    Cheers Gerry

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    OK. I've covered a few miles in the beast now and still have one minor glitch. The synchro into 4th gear seems to have developed a crunch unless I guide it in gently. This wasn't apparent before I dismantled and reconditioned.

    A couple of possibilities spring to mind. At first I thought perhaps the clutch wasn't fully disengaging, but a re-adjust of that item hasn't stopped the crunch.

    As a temporary "running in and flushing" oil I've got a generic 80w90 in there just to clear out any lumps of scunge, body parts, nuts and/or bolts, I may have left behind. Plan is to replace that with a quality Penrite EP product waiting patiently in the wings, and augmenting with a tube of Nulon G70, the universal panacea for manual gearboxes in my opinion.

    I guess I'll see if things improve once I've done that.

    However, going back to the Manual, in my relentless search for Truth, I may have stumbled on a reason.

    In setting clearance J2 as specified in the attached page from the manual, I used Special Tool 3153-T (actually a bit of brazing rod squashed to 2.7mm wide, but equivalent nonetheless). A more searching perusal of the words of the manual suggests I perhaps should have adjusted to 1.5mm (Special tool 1785T or carefully squashed welding wire) as it's entirely possible that this gearbox (while original to the car as I got it) is from a Dyane, given the 19 tooth input shaft.

    My question to the Brains Trust is this: Is it likely that if J2 is too wide the synchro will jack up and refuse to co-operate?

    I imagine I can redo this adjustment in situ, which, while not optimum, is probably achievable, but I'd like to toss it around the knowledge base first before I risk more lumbar pain leaning over the thing.

    Your thoughts, Ladies & Gentlepersons, will be valued and carefully contemplated.

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2CV Gearbox Adventures-adjust-4th-selector.jpg  
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  20. #20
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    Does the 2CV synchro hub have an internal energiser spring that could break but stay in place? One typical high mileage failure in Renault R8/10/12/16 transaxles is that spring.
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
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    Does the 2CV synchro hub have an internal energiser spring that could break but stay in place? One typical high mileage failure in Renault R8/10/12/16 transaxles is that spring.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Pottsy,
    the shim you need is the 2.7mm type; the thinner one is only for the earlier gearboxes, which had the gear lever mounted on the rear cover.

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    Time for a revisit to this latest topic.

    Today I removed the gearbox lid and re-checked the spacing of the 4th gear selector. I think it was definitely too narrow as, after making a new version of tool 3153-T from a bit of filed down 3mm flat steel, it seemed to sit in a better place.

    Proof of the pudding was driving the machine this afternoon. Selection of fourth gear is now accomplished with ease, smoothness and a complete lack of graunching so I count that as a win. (And castigate myself for not getting it right the first time, although that's how we learn I suppose!)

    As part of the whole process I've also changed the oil to Penrite Premium EP 80/90 (which is a very fetching shade of blue for some reason!) and added that most magnificent of gearbox products, Nulon G70.

    Looking at it logically, by having the whole assembly a poofteenth closer to the gear than it should have been deprived the synchroniser from doing its thing by not allowing it freedom of movement as the dogs approached each other (snuffling and growling, or is that too much? ) Giving it that extra bit of travel seems to have allowed the relevant parts to achieve synchronicity as designed.

    Once again, Mr Citroen seems to have been right, not that I was questioning him, but obviously I was a bit too cavalier with my measurement.

    All that being said, it's bloody hard to get to and actually see the bits one is spacing with the tool.

    Ah well, truly is it said that if a day goes by without learning something new, you've wasted a day.

    Thanks for all the input,

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

  24. #24
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Jul 2001
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    Perth, WA, Australia
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    That's interesting, in all parts. I can advise that Redline Synthetic Lightweight Shock Proof Gear Oil is also bright blue. Gave me quite a shock! Good you are making progress. Never underestimate the design engineers eh? Have a great 2018.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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