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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Techno question for Tractionistes

    Hi there,
    Iím wanting to get my long-stalled Traction resto back on track. First job I need to finish is re-install fuel tank. In the house move Iíve lost the 9 screws that secure the feed pickup (3) & the gauge sender (6). Can anyone tell me what size /gauge these are?
    Been rummaging this arvo & found a multipack of m/c screws that go in part way - not sure if they wonít go fully home cos their not quite the right thread or thereís still goop from the tank sealer in the holes. My attempt to measure these gives a dia of 3/20ths (3.9mm) & a thread of Ď36 Gaugeí
    Donít want to force these in if theyíre not 100% correct.

    Thanks Rob

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  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    From the Spare Parts Manual!
    The Fuel pick up screws are 4mm x 12mm long.
    The rheostat ( sender) screws are 4mm x 30mm long on later model French tanks. However there only three instead of six. This makes me think that the tanks were modified for British use and that the screws could be an Imperial size. I have never measured them----always using the original screws that came with the tank!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 3rd December 2017 at 06:49 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    From the Spare Parts Manual!
    The Fuel pick up screws are 4mm x 12mm long.
    The rheostat ( sender) screws are 4mm x 30mm long on later model French tanks. However there only three instead of six. This makes me think that the tanks were modified for British use and that the screws could be an Imperial size. I have never measured them----always using the original screws that came with the tank!
    Thanks Gerrypro,
    Yes they looked a little Ďoddí when I removed them, thread pitch seems finer than metric, which is why I set them apart on a small tray on top of the storage cupboard. Trouble is Iíve moved garage (& house) & trayís disappeared :-( I could redouble my efforts to find the things but was hoping for a quicker solution.
    Slough Tractions seem to have a few oddities in the fixings - I seem to recall the ones holding the windscreen to its hinges are a bit Ďunique.í
    Regards Rob


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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Rob,

    Just for the record, an M4/.75 plug tap, is likely to solve your dilemma.

    And is probably zero affront to originality being on the top of the fuel tank.
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    The nearest thread tap I have ever found was an M4x.8. Where can I buy an M4x.75?
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I stand corrected.

    ISO metric pitches for M4 are 0.7 (fine)and 0.5 (coarse).
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I stand corrected.

    ISO metric pitches for M4 are 0.7 (fine)and 0.5 (coarse).
    Sorry ! I was not trying to correct you. You probably know way more than I on the subject of threads and pitches. I think I may have been thinking of the 5mm x .75mm commonly found on D series and also abound on 11BL.
    It is annoying that the Spares Manual for Tractions only gives the length and diameter of screws and bolts, totally neglecting the thread pitch!
    Cheers Gerry

  8. #8
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    If not metric, it may be BSF and cheese heads seem to be favourites for jobs like that. The Bristol stablemate may yield something that fits as a test.

    Edit: M4x0.7 would be very close to 36tpi, so it may well be that metric size.

    p.s. Of course, you don't know whether someone has retapped them before!
    Last edited by David S; 4th December 2017 at 11:28 AM.
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Sorry ! I was not trying to correct you. You probably know way more than I on the subject of threads and pitches. I think I may have been thinking of the 5mm x .75mm commonly found on D series and also abound on 11BL.
    It is annoying that the Spares Manual for Tractions only gives the length and diameter of screws and bolts, totally neglecting the thread pitch!
    No problems Gerry,

    For some reason .75 was in my mind. Which of course is M5 isometric fine.

    I can still acknowledge the need for erasers on the end of pencils.
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  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    They used M5 x .75 on the early DS ( nice one changing that to .8 mid production run! ). If you look on ebay.uk you can often find these odd sized taps at a reasonable cost (for cleaning up the old threads). Certainly I managed to readily source the M5 x .75 tap.

    Easiest fix is to measure the thread pitch on your existing screws and running the right tap through the tank. I imagine it's impossible to source the correct 0.75 thread pitch bolts in the lengths you require (though i'm sure the traction specialist websites have them).

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    Thanks Shane, Gerry, David, Robmac,
    Iíll do a bit of searching on the web, see what I can find. Regards Rob


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    Baldrick,

    fleet: 1989 Peugeot 505 GTi Wagon
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    1953 Citroen 15CV (under Restoration)
    1953 Bristol 401 (under Restoration)

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    Hi
    Just to point out that BA screw threads are metric pitch. They come in small diameter increments so may have been used in GB too. I will look up my 'bible'.

    Around that size are
    M 4 0.7p
    BA #3(4.1 D) 0.73 p mm
    machine screw# 8(4.16 D) 32 tpi coarse, 36 tpi fine
    M 4.5 0.75p. mm
    BA #2 (4.7 D) 0.81 p mm
    Take your pick but all would be available online easy enough. Try here in Australia for mail order AND an extensive complete range on the site. Plenty of info there too.
    Newcastle High Tensile Bolt Co

    https://www.hi-tensilebolt.com.au/
    cheers
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 4th December 2017 at 08:47 PM.
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    Gawd. The webs we weave. You need a pile of taps to see which one screws in easily so might therefore be the right pitch. God knows, especially as they might have been retapped!

    I have an assortment of odd "tiny" ones from my Renaults and luckily have always found something to fit those odd ones.

    Good luck.
    JohnW

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  14. #14
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Hare Forbes sell a good value general size metric tap and die set.

    I've never found a thread on a 404 I couldn't match in this set. Citroens are likely different.

    And it didn't break the bank. I probably wouldn't tackle large threads in tough steel.


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    I have already got a good set of taps and dies, Rob. Just not the odd size 5x.75mm. Thanks for the heads up!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Hi Guys,

    I think you will find that the screws are imperial, the tanks for Slough cars were made in the UK. The screws that I have for our 6H tank are 8 gauge / 32 teeth, but will need to check. They are identical to what was fitted, round head slotted brass.?

    I just check our 6 H gauge screws and they are damaged 4mm I think. They are also cheeses head like David suggested. The screws were extremly hard to remove.

    A 4mm, and an 8/32 screws are a very similar thread, and I have the feeling the gauge has been out before, and the original brass screws damaged in the process????

    I originally bought the imperial screws based on the screws i removed from the tank unit on the Con Cars Commerciale traction.

    The French tanks were definitely 4mm.

    Will come back & confirm.

    If they are correct, I'm happy to give you some, as I had to buy a box of 100. I think a fibre washer was fitted under the head.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Last edited by Greg; 5th December 2017 at 03:15 PM. Reason: More info
    baldrick56 likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    Thanks Jaan, John, Robmac, Gerry, Greg. Progress has now produced another issue (ainít it always the way). I found some M4 screws yesterday & decided to try them as the imperials seemed to tighten & jam after four or five turns. Also found an M4 tap & cleaned up the threads. New screws go in nice & easy now.
    When I turned my attention to the pickup I attempted to clean it with an old toothbrush & solvent to find its not gauze but a stack of ?brass? Washers. The lower steel containing washer has rotted through & cracked, it has 4 small holes to take the Ďcageí part (Iím guessing to prevent the stack coming under load which would stop the flow). Not sure whether to abandon the Cit system & try find a gauze Ďballooní to replace it (which would probably have less resistance to flow). Any thoughts on this? Regards Rob


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    1969 Peugeot 404 Sedan
    2003 Smart 452 Roadster
    2005 MG ZR160
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    Hi
    I would put a gauze strainer on there if it was mine
    NB people talk about imperial threads ! BA stands for BRITISH ASSOCIATION. Is that imperial or not ? Certainly British.
    Jaahn

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    Hi Guys,

    The fuel pick up part of the English tank on big boot cars, is actually the French pickup. On the French tank there are two holes in the top of the tank of the same diameter, on the English tank the hole for the fuel tank sender is much larger to accept the 12V generic Lucas unit (its used on a lot of different vehicles of the time).

    If you buy a new Replacement French fuel pickup, it will be now be fitted with a gauze mesh strainer.

    This part is available new from DF, as often the stem of the original is very corroded. The new parts is all stainless & 52.90 euro

    Techno question for Tractionistes-citroen-ds-11cv-hy-fuel-system-intake-pipe-152mm-p60393.jpg

    Best regards,

    Greg
    baldrick56 likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi
    I would put a gauze strainer on there if it was mine
    NB people talk about imperial threads ! BA stands for BRITISH ASSOCIATION. Is that imperial or not ? Certainly British.
    Jaahn
    As far as I can recall there is BA Imperial, AF and Whitworth. Correct me please if I am wrong.
    BTW the pick up originally had a stacked brass disc strainer. Earlier ( small boot ) had a plain tube that screwed into the tank top. However the lower tip of the tube went into a rudimentary strainer that was part of the drain plug. It would maybe stop sand and small boulders! A filter is definitely advisable and is best fitted in the rubber tube that connects the pick up piping to the main fuel pipe running under the car. It is easily serviced in this position and does not suffer from drain back as occurs when fitted between the fuel pump and the carburettor!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 9th December 2017 at 12:23 PM.
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    Cheers Gerry

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    As far as I can recall there is BA Imperial, AF and Whitworth.
    And:

    UNF
    UNC
    ACME
    PIPE
    Microscope and Lens
    Hose coupling

    And a host of others most likely. None of which are likely to found on the average motor vehicle or even a Citroen.
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    Hi Guys,

    I think you left out BNB: British National Brass (ROFLOL)

    The English Traction used 1/2" BSB on the fuel line fitting from the underbody pie to the flexible metal sheathed fuel hose to the AC fuel pump and then to the Carby.

    The threads per inch were all the same, 28 (I think).

    Most English Tractions had the flexible fuel hose replaced with a reinforced rubber hose as the original deteriorated.

    If there is anyone with the remains of the original metal flexible hose, I'm very interested, as I would like to fit one to our 6H. The pipe and crimp sleeves are easy, but finding the fitting is impossible.

    best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  23. #23
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    Hello,
    My recollection is that there is at least

    Imperial
    BSF (British standard fine). All over british bikes and some cars
    BSW (British standard whitworth) . not sure where that was used but is very coarse

    Metric sizes..... at least 2

    American
    SAE fine
    SAE coarse
    UNC (unified national coarse)
    UNF (unified national fine) I think my MGB has this

    And a host of pipe fittings, admiralty fittings etc etc.

    Cheers

    Ian
    Blueduck (aka Ian Downie)
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  24. #24
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    Hi
    My thread bible ! My machinery handbook has gone but I used this for years at work and since. In sizes where there are different pitches available it shows both(or more), eg metric. Some metric sizes have three commonish pitches,eg 10,12 14mm.
    How about UNS. I had to chase those once in a HT 1" bolt. The table listed it and I purchased some for a testing job.
    Jaahn
    Techno question for Tractionistes-20171209_165824-1024x768-.jpgTechno question for Tractionistes-20171209_165530-1024x768-.jpg
    PS until fairly recently BSW were the normal bolts sold down the hardware shops.
    Last edited by jaahn; 9th December 2017 at 05:18 PM.

  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Speaking as a geologist, I'm a keen amateur in this area, compared with some here with serious knowledge. However, Whitworth is pretty special, as the world's first standardised thread, as I have always understood it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...dard_Whitworth

    Here's Wikipedia's opening words on the subject

    The Whitworth thread was the world's first national screw thread standard,[1] devised and specified by Joseph Whitworth in 1841. Until then, the only standardization was what little had been done by individual people and companies, with some companies' in-house standards spreading a bit within their industries. Whitworth's new standard specified a 55į thread angle and a thread depth of 0.640327p and a radius of 0.137329p, where p is the pitch. The thread pitch increases with diameter in steps specified on a chart.

    The Whitworth thread system was later to be adopted as a British Standard to become British Standard Whitworth (BSW). An example of the use of the Whitworth thread are the Royal Navy's Crimean War gunboats. These are the first instance of mass-production techniques being applied to marine engineering, as the following quotation from the obituary from The Times of 24 January 1887 to Sir Joseph Whitworth (1803–1887) shows:


    The Crimean War began, and Sir Charles Napier demanded of the Admiralty 120 gunboats, each with engines of 60 horsepower, for the campaign of 1855 in the Baltic. There were just ninety days in which to meet this requisition, and, short as the time was, the building of the gunboats presented no difficulty. It was otherwise however with the engines, and the Admiralty were in despair. Suddenly, by a flash of the mechanical genius which was inherent in him, the late Mr John Penn solved the difficulty, and solved it quite easily. He had a pair of engines on hand of the exact size. He took them to pieces and he distributed the parts among the best machine shops in the country, telling each to make ninety sets exactly in all respects to the sample. The orders were executed with unfailing regularity, and he actually completed ninety sets of engines of 60 horsepower in ninety days – a feat which made the great Continental Powers stare with wonder, and which was possible only because the Whitworth standards of measurement and of accuracy and finish were by that time thoroughly recognised and established throughout the country.


    It's all too easy to take this stuff for granted when the clever ideas have been so accepted and adopted. Whitworth presumably made a fortune - there's an art gallery at Manchester University named after him.

    Sorry for hijack, but it is so interesting......
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    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
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