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Thread: 2CV unwell

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Default 2CV unwell

    Here's the story. Gaston has been running beautifully as he gets "shaken down" for the RAID NZ.

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    Today the plan was to tootle up to the Cathedral Range wherin the rest of the family are camping this weekend.

    Up the Black Spur with the roof rolled back and third gear all the way. Lovely.

    Onto the dirt stuff (Mt Margaret Rd and Cerberus Rd) heading over Sugarloaf Saddle to cruise on down to the kids campsite at Cooks Mill.

    Disaster struck. Horrible noises followed by a total lack of drive. Hmm. Roll to a stop and up with the bonnet.

    I'm reasonably sure you shouldn't be able to spin the flywheel freely by hand. Looks to be not connected to the engine any more.

    Eldest Son comes and tows me to the top of the hill with Disco 3, then a quiet roll all the way down into the valley. I reckon those hikers I passed thought it was electric!

    RACV Total Care is fantastic. Car is back home and the engine is out.

    Flywheel bolts are sheared off, as is the locating pin. They were Loctited in and torqued to spec.

    A bit pissed off as these were sold to me as high tensile, although not bearing any annotation to that effect. I suspect they simply weren't, and unleashing all of Gaston's Horsepower up a dirt road was their "undoing". Sitting on the shelf I have a complete set of brand new ones from Der Franzose, so they'll go in, but first for the fun part, getting the Loctited dag ends out of the crank!

    Bummer.

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2CV unwell-flywheel-bolts-sheared-2.jpg   2CV unwell-flywheel-bolts-sheared-1.jpg  
    Last edited by pottsy; 29th October 2017 at 03:39 PM.
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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    A well-planned failure to proceed by the sounds of it. Nice job.

    I'd suggest if a bolt doesn't have 8.8 or some other high tensile designation on its head, it is not high tensile.

    Roger

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    Pottsy,
    better to happen now than when you're on the Raid, I guess.
    Hope you're not going to repeat the mistake of using Loctite on these bolts...

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Pottsy, try a bit of heat on the bolts to burn out the Loctite and then soak in Penetrine / WD40 or the like before drilling and then easy-outs are used!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Default High tensile markings ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    A well-planned failure to proceed by the sounds of it. Nice job.

    I'd suggest if a bolt doesn't have 8.8 or some other high tensile designation on its head, it is not high tensile.

    Roger
    Hi pottsy
    I would also suggest, no markings, not high tensile ! They would not comply with any engineering standard in the world for graded bolts.
    The unfortunate thing is,as you correctly tightened them up to spec for a high tensile bolt you most likely took them to near failure and well into the plastic zone because they were not strong enough for the torque applied.
    A learning experience ! I hope the locktite grade used was not too high strength ?
    Jaahn

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    It's not just avoiding unmarked bolts. The bolt standards have grade markings, easily looked up on online charts.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    OK, back on deck now. Been working a stopwatch at a Motorkhana for the Mini club today.

    Yes, from now on I believe only what my eyes see, such as grade markings, rather than what the bolt bloke tells me.

    Inferior bolts stretching into their plastic zone would certainly explain the failure. Surprising in one way though, since they're in shear rather than tension load, but I guess if they came a wee bit loosish then failure, even in shear, was inevitable anyway.

    Ken, I'm intrigued by your comment in regard to thread locker. My training has always been to use a bit on the first threads then torque to spec. Usually only in the case of critical bolts such as these, big ends and main bearing caps but recently extended to drive shaft flange bolts as well.

    Is the current thinking that thread locker is unnecessary? I always understood torque specs to be for "lightly oiled threads" and believed that a dab of thread locker satisfied this requirement. Happy to be wrong.

    I have never believed I know everything. Certainly, any day you learn something new is a good day for mine. A good mate of my Dad's always quoth "Knowledge is no burden son, don't be afraid to ask!"

    I'm definitely glad this didn't happen on the first hill out of Christchurch next year!

    Have now purchased a set of left hand cobalt drills with matching extractors. A good whack with the centre punch before drilling and we'll see what transpires!

    Cheers for now, Pottsy.
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    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 ex UK 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
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    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    COL
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    Pottsy

    I reckon those broken bolts will come out fairly easily, just drill a small hole down the middle and use an easy out.

    The broken bolts are probably soft and can be drilled by a normal drill.
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    Regards Col

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    Pottsy,
    my understanding is that those bolts are designed to act solely in tension, clamping the flywheel to the crankshaft together with enough force to ensure that no relative movement can occur.
    Any loss of clamping force runs the risk of such movement taking place, resulting in shear failure of the bolts.

    The roll pin is provided solely to ensure that the flywheel is mounted in its correct orientation relative to the crankshaft, in just one of the five possibilities available, otherwise that timing mark drilling in the engine side of the flywheel would be useless.

    As for the use of threadlock, there's no mention of it in Citroen's workshop manual.
    Having had to undertake removal of re-used original bolts which had been threadlocked and subsequently failed, that was just adding insult to injury, in my opinion...




    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    Inferior bolts stretching into their plastic zone would certainly explain the failure. Surprising in one way though, since they're in shear rather than tension load, but I guess if they came a wee bit loosish then failure, even in shear, was inevitable anyway.

    Ken, I'm intrigued by your comment in regard to thread locker. My training has always been to use a bit on the first threads then torque to spec. Usually only in the case of critical bolts such as these, big ends and main bearing caps but recently extended to drive shaft flange bolts as well.

    Is the current thinking that thread locker is unnecessary? I always understood torque specs to be for "lightly oiled threads" and believed that a dab of thread locker satisfied this requirement. Happy to be wrong.

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Good luck Pottsy. We look forward to photographs of the removal process!
    JohnW

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    JBN
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    Keep that photo of the sheared flywheel bolts, Pottsy. That is great bragging material for describing a two cylinder engine armed with 600cc of unleashed fury, although some may query why you used 1/2" long bolts to fit the flywheel.

    John

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    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    "Unleashed Fury". I like that. Fair to say it was working hard at the time of failure but I suspect it was a gradual thing. We were pulling steadily up a steep, rock strewn hill in first gear, so the torque multiplication was maximum.

    Anyone who mentions 1/2" bolts will obviously not have read the rest of the thread.

    I'm fairly sanguine about removing the broken stubs of bolts, it's the remains of the rollpin that concerns me.

    If I can get a "step" of steel behind it I'll try a slide hammer, otherwise I'm not sure how to proceed. Drilling will, I suspect be an exercise in futility.

    I suppose if the hole is deep enough I might be able to simply drive the remains all the way in leaving enough hole to locate the flywheel anyway.

    Ken, as far as threadlocker is concerned, I imagine my feelings towards it will be coloured by the difficulty of removing the broken bits. As I said, I have a new set of bolts standing by so they'll most likely go in at the correct torque figure and with no threadlocker.

    Forensic investigation will continue through the next few days as time permits. Murphy's Law dictates that it's a busy time lately.

    Cheers, and thanks for the input so far, Pottsy.
    Last edited by pottsy; 29th October 2017 at 10:02 PM.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

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    1982 ex UK 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    Half of a 1984 2CV6Special ("The Alleged Vehicle")
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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    About the roll pin removal.

    I wonder how you would fare by filling the cavity with thick oil or grease and driving a tightly fitting pin punch into the centre of the pin ?

    The hydraulic removal technique.
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    COL
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    How would you go with a Dynabolt attached to a slide hammer? not sure what the bore size of the hollow dowel is, but you may get lucky and find one that will fit down the bore and tight up enough to catch on the back end of the dowel.

    Just my worth.
    Regards Col

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    Hi Pottsy,
    just checked on a crankshaft and the roll pin is 15mm long, with your missing section being 5mm, since the counterbore for the pin is 10mm deep.
    I've sacrificed a scribe in the past, getting it between the pin and the bore, then driving it in to collapse the pin inwards.
    Thinking about it now, a suitably slimmed-down masonry nail is probably a cheaper option...
    .
    (Whilst I remember, looking to when you're at the stage of fitting it all back together, because of that 'scuffing' evident on the crankshaft tail, it may be worth assembling the flywheel onto the crankshaft and just nipping the new bolts down, then checking that the flywheel still spins true.
    Fingers crossed that it will all be good to go.)


    Removal of the rollpin used to register flywheel & crankshaft by slcchassis, on Flickr
    Last edited by Ken H; 30th October 2017 at 06:01 AM.

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Thanks chaps.

    The "hydraulic" (should that be "greasedraulic?) method is one I've used in the past on spigot bushes, and it does work. If I can dig out, or machine up, a suitable snug pin for the centre I'll give that a go as the preferred, non destructive, option. A bit concerned that I won't be able to achieve a tight enough seal though as the pin has a slot down one side. I can foresee a lot of cleaning up after this one!

    Ken, thanks for the measurements. If the hole is only 10mm then I guess I have to clear it rather than sacrifice the rear few mm.

    As for using a dynabolt, I don't think they come in such a small diameter. In any case, the method of removal for a roll pin should not include an expansion force if at all possible. This is different to unscrewing a broken stub end in that such stubs shouldn't expand their diameter in the hole, unlike the roll pin.

    Hopefully I'll get on to this later today after doing some business this morning.

    I'm keen to get stuck in....Boom Boom... (Geddit? Stuck, as in roll pin? Oh please yerselves!)

    Oh, and Ken, yes I'm a wee bit concerned about the scuffing. I was contemplating a bit of valve grinding paste on the surfaces to sort of linish them together. Since the flywheel was spinning freely on the centre boss of the flywheel I'm hoping that it's all worn an even amount, but time will tell.

    Until I pulled it all apart I was tossing up between the bolts having sheared or the rear part of the crank having broken. This was based on the fact that the flywheel spun freely but seemed to be well located laterally. I hadn't factored in the boss providing a lateral support. I'll closely inspect the whole lot once I get time in the shed.

    Cheers, Pottsy.

    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2006 307 Auto 5 Door ("Spike" Mrs P's)
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    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 ex UK 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    Half of a 1984 2CV6Special ("The Alleged Vehicle")
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    As for using a dynabolt, I don't think they come in such a small diameter. In any case, the method of removal for a roll pin should not include an expansion force if at all possible. This is different to unscrewing a broken stub end in that such stubs shouldn't expand their diameter in the hole, unlike the roll pin.
    Pottsy

    You may of misunderstood my post, I understand that the roll pin does not go to the bottom of the hole so there is a void behind it.

    My method was to put the Dynabolt to the bottom of the hole and expand it and to pull against the small shoulder of the roll pin, not to expand in the hole in the roll pin.

    Dynabolts come in even mm sizes starting at 6mm so looking at your picture a 6mm or 8mm will be the size you need.

    Anyway its your call, good luck with which ever method you choose to use.
    Regards Col

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    Should you be rechristened "THE WOBBLY FLYWHEEL" replacing Pottsy????????????

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Worst case removal is by spark erosion, favored method for removing impossibly seized broken taps in blind holes.

    But the crank would need be out and at an engineering shop for that to happen.

    You do have a worst case option that will be a definite solution, if improvised methods fail you.

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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Can I get a WOOHOO?

    The broken bits have all been extracted and are blinking in the unaccustomed light.

    Firstly the rollpin. The Greasedraulic method worked a treat. I just happen to have a 6mm pin punch that fitted neatly up the middle of the remains. Filling the cavity with grease (Castrol HTB if you really want to know! ) and applying a couple of percussive strokes resulted in the broken bit popping out like a gopher!

    Creating the replacement out of a redundant pin, from a Peugeot door hinge I think, meant that I could then use the flywheel as a centering gauge to centre punch the broken bolts. A whack with the hammer also seemed to release the threadlock, as I had been told would probably be the case. All I then had to do was simply start the left handed drill in each of them and they compliantly came out of their holes with no fuss or drama.

    So all is good and after a good clean and check of the threads, not to mention a tidy up of the mating surfaces of the flywheel and crank, I'm ready to reassemble and continue the shake down process.

    A check of the new bolts standing by has shown they are marked "10.9" so I reckon they're probably kosher. Interestingly, the ones that came out originally are unmarked, although of the right type in that they have the plain shank below the head, unlike the replacements I put in which were a full thread setscrew. (I suspect my second mistake in this farrago.) From L to R in the pic, one of the crappy setscrews some muppet (me) used, an original bolt and one of the new replacements.

    In any case, the flywheel will be bolted on, without threadlock but torqued to spec with confidence.

    As a wise man (?) once said: "I love it when a plan comes together!"

    Thanks for all the suggestions chaps. It's what this forum is all about.

    Oh, and the pics captions should be self explanatory, even though I seemed to have loaded them in reverse order. Ah well, I'm only human!

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2CV unwell-ready-cleanup.jpg   2CV unwell-all-out.jpg   2CV unwell-start-drilling-out-she-comes.jpg   2CV unwell-50-dollars-total-tools.jpg   2CV unwell-flywheel-gauge.jpg   2CV unwell-thar-she-blows.jpg  

    2CV unwell-filled-grease.jpg   2CV unwell-6mm-pin-punch-perfect-fit.jpg   2CV unwell-bolts-2.jpg   2CV unwell-bolts-1.jpg  
    jaahn, JohnW and Shoji like this.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

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    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 ex UK 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    Half of a 1984 2CV6Special ("The Alleged Vehicle")
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    It's really good to see a potentially impossible situation resolve so easily and well.

    Congrats on a job well done.
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  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Car 76 View Post
    Should you be rechristened "THE WOBBLY FLYWHEEL" replacing Pottsy????????????
    Definitely NOT Flash! It was spinning freely, not wobbling!
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2006 307 Auto 5 Door ("Spike" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 ex UK 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    Half of a 1984 2CV6Special ("The Alleged Vehicle")
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    Can I get a WOOHOO?

    The broken bits have all been extracted and are blinking in the unaccustomed light.

    Firstly the rollpin. The Greasedraulic method worked a treat. I just happen to have a 6mm pin punch that fitted neatly up the middle of the remains. Filling the cavity with grease (Castrol HTB if you really want to know! ) and applying a couple of percussive strokes resulted in the broken bit popping out like a gopher!

    Creating the replacement out of a redundant pin, from a Peugeot door hinge I think, meant that I could then use the flywheel as a centering gauge to centre punch the broken bolts. A whack with the hammer also seemed to release the threadlock, as I had been told would probably be the case. All I then had to do was simply start the left handed drill in each of them and they compliantly came out of their holes with no fuss or drama.

    ...

    Cheers, Pottsy.

    Thank goodness you didn't have to risk Easyouts ! ["shudder"]

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! pottsy's Avatar
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    Final questions before I start reassemble.

    Run out on the flywheel, less than 3 thou by the manual?

    Torque of the new bolts 33 ft lb?

    Thread lock or No thread lock? (Burton engine assembly manual says yes, no mention anywhere else.)

    Anything else I should know? Seal is new (when I put the dodgybolts in less than 1000 miles ago) and not leaking.

    Cheers, Pottsy.
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2006 307 Auto 5 Door ("Spike" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1982 ex UK 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    Half of a 1984 2CV6Special ("The Alleged Vehicle")
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    A big WOO HOO from me. Also, a nice "out"come. Forgive that....

    I note that the original bolt has a rolled thread, like many of my Renault high tensile engine bolts. It looks like a quality item. The new one you are talking about using has a cut thread. Others who know more may comment, but I'm not so sure I'd replace those originals at all with a cut thread bolt.

    I'm still waiting for an excuse to use that hydraulic method! I guess I should hope to die waiting.... I'm still waiting to use my left hand drill bits too. No doubt my time will come!

    Great photos and thanks for sharing.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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