DS23 cooling issues
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Thread: DS23 cooling issues

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default DS23 cooling issues

    I have a 1974 DS23 automatic which has suffered cooling issues for some time. I recently re-read Pottsyís 2006 thread on this topic http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/31751-ds-cooling-2.html and the following contribution by George 1/8th in post #48 intrigues me in the context of this topic.
    ďOne of my cars once had a ridiculous overheating problem. See if your distributor "looks" to be in the proper place, as it's possible that someone has removed and re-fitted the distributor ...as mine was...but out by one tooth!!!
    This made the car retarded, even when the distributor body was rotated as far as possible into the advance direction.

    The result was that the car ran REALLY hot, even in winter.

    This caused such trouble that they sold the car....and I bought it!

    I got it cheap. Even the FORD specialist never solved the problem.
    My mechanic did....he realised the distributor was out one tooth.
    It took him five minutes to correct it...and then it ran beautifully cool, even in summer...and the power increase was AMAZING.

    Have a real good look ....you might find a similar fault.Ē
    Can anyone suggest how one would Ďalter the distributor drive by one toothí on a DS23 engine Ė and whether, as suggested by Georgeís experience, this might be a contributor to my carís overheating issues? (I assume the car George referred to was something other than a D series Citroen; perhaps a Ford.)
    Chris


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  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! citroenthusiast's Avatar
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    The only way you could be off by one tooth is if the distributor housing was assembled to the engine incorrectly. Rotate the engine to TDC and remove the distributor, the drive slot for the distributor should be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the engine. If it isn't you can rotate the distributor to compensate by loosening the pinch bolt that holds the adjustment flange onto the distributor. One caveat, however, is if your chain is badly worn (stretched) it will have the same effect, only it may be a warning sign to rebuild your engine.
    David S and Greg like this.
    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 TAV Legere; 61DS19 LHM BVH (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM EFI (Megasquirt); 73SM 3.0 (other son's)

  3. #3
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    When I bought my DS21 a few years back it suffered from overheating. I replaced virtually everything thing related to the cooling system except for the radiator which was checked and cleaned out twice. The problem remained until I decided to purchase the 2 part system cleaner which is advertised in Just Cars magazine. A vast amount of muck came from block and clogged the radiator totally. Another radiator clean and the overheating was gone.
    On the distributor issue I have been intrigued to see that most photos of the DS engine show the distributor cap in a quite different orientation to mine. I have set mine initially by the book and would have to retard it drastically on the clamp to get it anywhere near those shown in other photos, with a corresponding lack of performance. So I wonder if my arrangement is a tooth out perhaps.

    Don

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Thank you, John and Don.

    I have found that the distributor position was the problem. I was unaware that the distributor can rotate within the ring used to lock it in place if the tensioning clamp isn't sufficiently tight. I had locked the distributor in position with the nut (11 mm spanner), but because the locking ring itself wasn't sufficiently tight (8 mm spanner clamp bolt), the distributor could move.

    Setting the distributor correctly and locking it securely in place - and I now have instant starting (and steady idling), but for one issue, which I'll raise in another thread.

    Thanks, again, Chris
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! MelanieYlang's Avatar
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    Hi guys, we recently noticed my DSpecial (which had the motor replaced with the 2100 a few owners ago) overheated unexpectedly and have been wondering about what to look at - we'll certainly check this out.

    Sent from my LG-H815 using aussiefrogs mobile app

  6. #6
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    Hello, is there water in the radiator? Radiator cap kaput? Thermostat stuck or dead? Front of radiator full of dead flies, leaves or other detritus? Fan belts present? Slipping? Radiator chute damaged or zip open?
    Simple stuff first...
    MelanieYlang likes this.

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    I'm a little bit confused here (it doesn't take much)........

    If you remove a DS distributor, it can only go back the same as it was removed, as it fitted with an offset dog drive? So there is no way the distributor itself can be out 1 tooth as there are no teeth involved in the distrubitor.

    The only way it can be out otherwise is if the timing is out on the timing chain, or the distributor housing has been mounted onto the camshaft incorrectly, but this can only happen in an engine out situation.

    If the timing is out slightly by the incorrect housing fitment, it can be corrected, but the distributor may no longer sit in its usual position, either rotated further clockwise or anticlockwise.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelanieYlang View Post
    Hi guys, we recently noticed my DSpecial (which had the motor replaced with the 2100 a few owners ago) overheated unexpectedly and have been wondering about what to look at - we'll certainly check this out.

    Sent from my LG-H815 using aussiefrogs mobile app
    Check the simple things, but if you have the standard DSpecial carburetor jets supplying fuel to a DS 21 2175cc motor, there will be overheating cased by too lean fuel mixture. Easy to take the jets out and resize to 2175 specs.

    Sent from my LG-K520 using aussiefrogs mobile app

  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    if the car wasn't overheating before... and its suddenly started overheating .... make a beeline straight for the thermostat. They are fickle peices of junk. In my CX (that has a VERY accurate temperature gauge that isn't normalised like most)... I have been through about 1/2 dozen thermostats across a couple of manufactures. They are all SHIT ... utter complete crap. The first three would spike the temperature to 95+degrees before they would open. They then regulated to a termperature that was either far to hot or far too cold (one of the 82degree thermostats wouldn't allow the car get any warmer that 70degrees..... except for the 95+ degree spike in temperature to initially get it to open).

    It always sat on exactly 82 degrees until the thermostat in it failed. Currently it spikes to nearly 90degrees to open the thermostat.... and regulates to 78 degrees (not 82 like it should).

    It would drive you insane as you can't return them .... as no-one believes you when you say "this is no good, it doesn't open until 98 degres.... then the car is running far to cold".

    The other cars all have fine thermostats ... as they all run "normalised" factory temp gauges... that is they sit did center of the gauge at anything for 60degrees -> 110 degrees as this is considered "normal running temperature".

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Shane,

    Maybe your just attracted to crap thermostats? Roflol?

    There may be more to it than you think?

    best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  11. #11
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Shane,

    Maybe your just attracted to crap thermostats? Roflol?

    There may be more to it than you think?

    best regards,

    Greg
    I eventually found one that didn't do the big spike in temperature before opening ......... but it only regulates to 78 degrees........ Close enough!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  12. #12
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'd agree with that Shane.

    Do you drill your CX thermostats so at least there is warm water flow past the thing as the car warms up?

    Mine's behaving a lot better with a new high temperature switch screwed into the radiator too. The CX sits just above 85 degrees on the (good) aftermarket gauge although on hot days maybe nearer to 90. On parking, after a drive with the AC running on a hot Perth day, it rises to 95+, but comes straight back to near 90 once moving.

    The old French ones used on the Renault R8 behave perfectly, usually for decades.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  13. #13
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citroenthusiast View Post
    The only way you could be off by one tooth is if the distributor housing was assembled to the engine incorrectly. Rotate the engine to TDC and remove the distributor, the drive slot for the distributor should be parallel to the longitudinal axis of the engine. If it isn't you can rotate the distributor to compensate by loosening the pinch bolt that holds the adjustment flange onto the distributor. One caveat, however, is if your chain is badly worn (stretched) it will have the same effect, only it may be a warning sign to rebuild your engine.
    Wow, that would be some stretching! I can imagine it though.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    When it comes to thermostats, my experience is they are meant to fail open, so it usually becomes apparent in winter when the motor doesn't want to warm up. It easily checked by putting them into heated water, and see the reaction if they are removed and closed?

    Most overheating problems is the radiator?

    Jim Reddiex had some major problems with overheating in his ID cabriolet, and despite having the original radiator sent out to overhaul, it was evidently,for the most part, flushed and painted. A further removal of the radiator and sent away for overhaul turned out no better, and despite requesting for the top tank to be removed and rodded, it wasn't done.

    Form memory, Jim took off the top tank himself, and found the majority of the core blocked.

    With the price of new radiators from overseas suppliers now so cheap, and the core much more efficient than the originals, this would be my choice in the future.

    best regards,

    Greg
    robmac likes this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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