Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious
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  1. #1
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    Default Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious

    Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious

    I started a thread including which coolants to use on old and later cars but only got the response below from Shane - - -

    SHANE SAYS - - -

    it's been cold lately. I've just put the glycol coolant concentrate from supercheap into the machinary at my place that has cast iron engines/heads. My concern is freezing point more than corrosion with these old things. It's been minus 5 overnight over the last couple of weeks (infact we even had a hose in our house roof freeze and drown the house ... that's how cold it's been). So coolant freezing is likely a reasonable concern.

    My brother was just told by a radiator specialist that repaired the radiator in his old forklift ( i think there an old holden motor ) to run only water in it. ( weird right ). I guess they aren't worried about something living inside a shed freezing up.

    I wouldn't run fancy modern coolants in old engines. Who knows what the modern coolant might do to any old liner seals for example ... glycol or water has worked fine for the last 50->100 years, so I'm sticking with that

    seeya,
    Shane L.

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    Can anyone give more advice so I can keep revising the list below.

    COOLANTS TO USE - -

    RAINWATER.
    Holden motor as in forklift advice to Shane.
    Is this good enough to stop corrosion in DS alloy heads and rust inside my Traction engine ?
    Jaahn from Newcastle states --I would not run straight water in any motor, rain or distilled !! Perhaps if EVERTHING was cast iron including the radiator it might be OK. All other motors have some different metals so need something for anticorrosion prevention.

    GLYCOL coolant concentrate (bought from Supercheap). Used mainly as ANTIFREEZE. Does this also stop corrosion as in DS alloy heads ?
    Shane says this can be bought from Supercheap
    I might understand that Shane means products like Nulon which have Glycol in them.

    WHITE SOLUBLE OIL used as lubricant and cooling when working a lathe.
    It seems that this might be good in cast iron engines to stop rust inside ??
    Jaahn from Newcastle states - - WHITE SOLUBLE OIL. NO NO NO ! I tried that years ago and after some time the hoses all rotted and softened. Had to flush it out AND replace every hose !!

    NULON LONG LIFE COOLANT
    To stop corrosion in DS alloy heads and to stop rust in cast iron engines ???
    I have been using this in most of the cars and now I’m concerned that I’m doing the wrong thing.
    It seems that this seems good in all cast engines and with alloy.
    PICTURE BELOW - -
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious-nulon-coolant.jpg  
    Last edited by gilberthenry; 31st July 2017 at 07:56 AM.

  2. #2
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Hello John,

    Alloy components corrode differently from cast iron. Cast iron grows scale over the entire inner surface, which means it takes quite a long time for anything bad to happen; alloy corrodes in a narrow but deep tunnel, which means bad things can happen quickly. This is why corrosion protection is more critical in an engine with alloy components than an engine with all cast iron components. All the same, I reckon I would use corrosion inhibitor of some kind in all automotive engines.

    I have lots of engines: some all cast iron, some cast iron block and alloy head, and some all alloy. I just buy glycol-based coolant concentrate in 20 litre drums. I like the relatively benign nature of glycol. Once I tried organic acid technology coolant sometimes known as OAT), which is popular mostly I think because it lasts longer than glycol (4 or 5 years rather than about 2 years) but am uneasy about it because I worry that it might behave differently from glycol can cause unforeseen problems. Am I being paranoid? Maybe, who knows.

    Roger

    I would use rainwater in a newly reconditioned engine for a while. No more than a few weeks in an engine with alloy components, maybe a few months in an engine with all cast iron components. This lets everything seal up.

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    I have used the Nulon concentrate for years in all types of engine at the recommended concentrate level without any sign of problems. In recent years after any radiator coolant change I have also used either distilled water or pure water (Nulon also sell Radiator & Cooling System water, demineralized water , in 5 litre @ $5 and greater containers) that is often on special at auto stores. The larger the container the cheaper the product.

    Tank water with the Nulon concentrate is just as good IMHO!

    Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    I would use rainwater in a newly reconditioned engine for a while. No more than a few weeks in an engine with alloy components, maybe a few months in an engine with all cast iron components. This lets everything seal up.
    That's an interesting thought. I do find glycol-based coolants leak through some gaskets enough to irritate me (and also through micro-pores in my alloy water pump base casting). I had considered a light Bars-Leaks treatment after homogenizing the stuff with a Bamix but prefer to avoid that stuff! I have a paper gasket leaking slightly still some 3-4 years after assembly. The green BP coolant almost drips through old copper-asbestos head gaskets in my experience.
    JohnW

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    I added some Nulon radiator sealant to my Nulon long life coolant in the CX. And it pretty much stopped that gasket porosity problem. The main trouble areas were the rear head seal plate and the thermostat housing gaskets and of course the radiator hose clamps. Of course a block of finely ground pepper will do the trick as well. This is the stuff that 'Head-Fix' recommended to ad to my daughters Escort head after the cracks had been repaired!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'd forgotten pepper. Out of interest, how much radiator sealant did you add? I'm getting tired of the perpetually growing powder deposit on the seal plate at the back of the 4CV head.
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
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    Radiator coolant is a bit of a minefield, the pink coolant not suitable for copper radiators, and I'm told it likes to encourage leaks.

    I like Nulons products, and have used them for a long while, and been very happy with them. They now have a coolant Nulon One, which is suitable for all cars, and has a guarantee of 10 years. They recommend demineralised water to be used with the coolant.

    I'll gradually change all our cars to Nulon one.

    Interestingly, it's the same colour as Citroen OEM coolant?

    best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    I would not use straight rainwater without inhibitors, this will be where it gets tricky of course.
    87 S1 205 GTI / GTI6 powered a project underway

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    1000+ Posts Wildebeest's Avatar
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    Tectalloy Gold concentrate. Half litre makes 15 litres. Good for two changes on my 504. Store the unused half [250m]
    in a dark place. Next to your plonk!
    This product was recommended by my head guy after some work on my previous 504. Low glycol content, he gives it the thumbs up for Holden.
    With a 4lb recovery cap and an overflow [Unipart] bottle it uses about a cup full of coolant / annum.

    Johnno, what happened to those sacrificial coils that were the go back then. Zinc I believe?

    Congratulations on your new position. Now I hope you haven't got dual nationality?


    A rare extravagance on my part, Despite the recommended 2 year change period I do mine annually.
    Last edited by Wildebeest; 29th July 2017 at 02:26 PM. Reason: dotting T's crossing the I's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Tectalloy Gold concentrate. Half litre makes 15 litres. Good for two changes on my 504. Store the nused half [250m] in a dark place. Next to your plonk! This product was recommended by my head guy after some work on my previous 504. Low glycol content, he gives it the thumbs up for Holden. With a 4lb recovery cap and an overflow [Unipart] bottle it uses about a cup full of coolant / annum. Johnno, what happened to those sacrificial coils that were the go back then. Zinc I believe? Congratulations on your new position. Now I hope you haven't got dual nationality? A rare extravagance on my part, Despite the recommended 2 year change period I do mine annually.
    I've triple nationality, so it doesn't apply to me... Thank you though!

    Those sacrificial coils are all about corrosion being lots of little electrochemical cells between unlike metals (and not all alloys are the same chemically or electrochemically I think. It's a sound and well-established corrosion protection principle of course. My 4CV was stored for 12 years with rainwater and no inhibitors and there was no corrosion - if the water is near pure, it has near to zero electrical conductivity so shouldn't allow much corrosion at all, I reckon. I think, in Oz, glycol has caused great confusion, as the early anti-corrosion coolants (think Renault R4) were out of Europe, and glycol-based to achieve anti-freeze characteristics (and I higher boiling point I think). There were inhibitors too, as it is corrosive, again if I recall correctly.

    For historic reasons, my 4CV now has Peugeot factory (pale blue) coolant and the R8 the standard green Castrol/BP product. Both work well, but both leak/seep very slowly but noticeably through old-school gaskets and some alloy castings. I applaud your annual coolant change!!

    I'd be so interested to hear from someone who has lashed out and is using a waterless coolant. Is it propylene glycol, one up the carbon chain from ethylene glycol? It really seems "the go" to me. Very high BP so no localised boiling is possible in the combustion chamber area. But it is pricey and MUST have very little water contamination to perform properly I think.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Never mix coolant...always flush if changing....Must use only same batch no.if using same brand....if not...not good.Never heard of Oat...worth looking into...propylene glycol etc.not good for anyone....carcinogenic...stays in our water....not taken out of water when water "purified"...we end up drinking it..

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I'd forgotten pepper. Out of interest, how much radiator sealant did you add? I'm getting tired of the perpetually growing powder deposit on the seal plate at the back of the 4CV head.
    John, the Nulon sealant comes in a one dose bottle! I used the whole lot!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Here in the U.K, Darrin at Citroenclassics has looked into this:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/citro...lder-cars/amp/


    Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs

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    Bit here about the subject of various and future coolants.

    Coolant Experts
    Currently the majority of engine coolants in the global market place are ethylene glycol based. However other coolant base fluids exist such as propylene glycol and water.* There is a small percentage of propylene glycol based coolant on the market. Propylene glycol is less toxic than ethylene glycol and has perceived environmental benefits; however, these are off-set by higher cost. Even with the environmental benefits of propylene glycol it still comes from a non renewable resource.* Recent developments have provided other sources of propylene glycol where it is made from renewable materials such as the biodiesel process and corn.* Recochem uses these renewable products to provide a more environmentally friendly option to our customers to meet current and future needs.
    Last edited by Kenfuego; 30th July 2017 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Add in the environmental & less toxic to pets explanation for those interested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budge View Post
    Here in the U.K, Darrin at Citroenclassics has looked into this: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/citro...lder-cars/amp/ Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs
    Many thanks. Interesting article indeed! This has been a much discussed subject on Aussiefrogs over the years, and confusing barely describes the range of coolants available.
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

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    I'm probably going to try the Evans waterless thing in my next project. I'll let you know.
    Thing is, it'll take some five to ten years to actually know whether it's worth it, but then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budge View Post
    Here in the U.K, Darrin at Citroenclassics has looked into this:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/citro...lder-cars/amp/


    Sent from my iPhone using aussiefrogs
    In the states you can still get propylene glycol antifreeze with IAT (silicone silicate) corrosion inhibitors. "Sierra" is one brand.
    Cheers,
    John T.

    61DS19 LHM BVH (son's); 67DS21 BVH; 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM EFI (Megasquirt); 73SM 3.0 (other son's)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I'm probably going to try the Evans waterless thing in my next project. I'll let you know.
    Thing is, it'll take some five to ten years to actually know whether it's worth it, but then.
    Judging by what I've read, it'll be very interesting to know what running temperatures you get. Apart from corrosion protection, it is the ability to run higher localised temperatures without boiling, e.g. hot spots in the head, that appeals to me.

    Thanks
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
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    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious

    I started a thread including which coolants to use on old and later cars but only got the response below from Shane - - -

    COOLANTS TO USE - -

    RAINWATER.
    Holden motor as in forklift advice to Shane.
    Is this good enough to stop corrosion in DS alloy heads and rust inside my Traction engine ?

    GLYCOL coolant concentrate (bought from Supercheap). Used mainly as ANTIFREEZE. Does this also stop corrosion as in DS alloy heads ?
    Shane says this can be bought from Supercheap

    WHITE SOLUBLE OIL used as lubricant and cooling when working a lathe.
    It seems that this might be good in cast iron engines to stop rust inside ??

    NULON LONG LIFE COOLANT
    To stop corrosion in DS alloy heads and to stop rust in cast iron engines ???
    I have been using this in most of the cars and now Iím concerned that Iím doing the wrong thing.
    PICTURE BELOW - -
    Hi
    Much has been said that is good but my two cents worth:
    I would not run straight water in any motor, rain or distilled !! Perhaps if EVERTHING was cast iron including the radiator it might be OK. All other motors have some different metals so need something for anticorrosion prevention.
    Glycol is not anti corrosion itself but must have additives to prevent corrosion. Mostly used for the lower freezing point AND increased boiling point. In fact gycol breaks down to make corrosive and poisonous components over time and temperature.
    WHITE SOLUBLE OIL. NO NO NO ! I tried that years ago and after some time the hoses all rotted and softened. Had to flush it out AND replace every hose !!
    NULON LONG LIFE COOLANT. I would be happy with that or similar. I would use the green stuff by preference. The red stuff has been preferenced, as I understand it, because it is less toxic when disposed of after use.
    In previous times for many years I used those small cans of Castrol green anti corrosion concentrate in lots of non critical applications of older engines and tractors and cars. Cheap and easy and never had a problem. However they suddenly went off the market a few years ago. Not sure why !! If you have alloy in there you must use something or pay the price ?? Now the radiators are alloy and the heater cores, and there is no "corrosion allowance" in the thickness used. It has been stressed forming it to shape so even that causes corrosion potential differences between different parts of the same item . Plain water will be a disaster IMHO.
    jaahn
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I too used the small Castrol tins of anti-corrosion additive. Worked perfectly. Agree your comments.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Just a thought:

    Maybe using the coolant used on 2CV's & GS's might be the solution. You never see them boiling, burst hoses or blocked radiators, and you never have to change the water pump................

    Best regards,

    Greg
    JohnW, gerrypro and jaahn like this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Just a thought:

    Maybe using the coolant used on 2CV's & GS's might be the solution. You never see them boiling, burst hoses or blocked radiators, and you never have to change the water pump................

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Ha! Ha!
    Greg likes this.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Well........It is waterless, and that seems to be pretty trendy when it comes to coolants?
    gerrypro and jaahn like this.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    Thank God I'm a Frenchman harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    I too used the small Castrol tins of anti-corrosion additive. Worked perfectly. Agree your comments.
    Yes me too. However I haven't been able to find it anymore in the usual places.
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  25. #25
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    I've never seen evidence of an engine having issues from its coolant as long as it had a proprietary corrosion inhibitor in the cooling system. I don't think it deserves all this analysis. Just use a good quality coolant of the type specified by the manufacturer (glycol, OAT) and enjoy. Change according to the service schedule.

    Peugeot specify Glysantin G33 (or a BASF equivalent) for my 206 GTi. Nulon have a coolant which they say is a direct replacement for G33. That's good enough for me, so I bought some.

    Cheers

    Stuey
    Last edited by Stuey; 30th July 2017 at 06:13 PM.
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