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Thread: Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious

  1. #26
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    The other thing I've decided over years of these discussions is that all cars of an era have the same metallurgy in their engines and ancillaries so I don't accept that you need to use a manufacturer's special coolant. For example, it is suggested on the net a number of times that Glysantin G33 is exactly the same as another Glysantin numbered coolant (comparing MSDS data) which is commonly available in Europe, but G33 is coloured differently and sold as PSA OEM coolant. Of course, this is almost certainly true as I can't imagine PSA bread and butter cars needing a special coolant.

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    While I bought the Nulon G33 equivalent, I would have been happy to put any good quality glycol coolant in the car regardless of whether it met Peugeot's standards if I couldn't find the equivalent, because I don't believe there's anything about Peugeot's engines that's any different to other brands. Clearly I wouldn't do this is my cars were under warranty. But I just like to be able to get the stuff easily.

    I'd buy the exact specification as per the manufacturer, however, if my car had an engine where the wet bits were made from, say, an exotic magnesium alloy.


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

  2. #27
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    COOLANTS TO USE - -

    RAINWATER.
    Holden motor as in forklift advice to Shane.
    Is this good enough to stop corrosion in DS alloy heads and rust inside my Traction engine ?
    Jaahn from Newcastle states --I would not run straight water in any motor, rain or distilled !! Perhaps if EVERTHING was cast iron including the radiator it might be OK. All other motors have some different metals so need something for anticorrosion prevention.

    GLYCOL coolant concentrate (bought from Supercheap). Used mainly as ANTIFREEZE. Does this also stop corrosion as in DS alloy heads ?
    Shane says this can be bought from Supercheap
    I might understand that Shane means products like Nulon which have Glycol in them.

    WHITE SOLUBLE OIL used as lubricant and cooling when working a lathe.
    It seems that this might be good in cast iron engines to stop rust inside ??
    Jaahn from Newcastle states - - WHITE SOLUBLE OIL. NO NO NO ! I tried that years ago and after some time the hoses all rotted and softened. Had to flush it out AND replace every hose !!

    NULON LONG LIFE COOLANT
    To stop corrosion in DS alloy heads and to stop rust in cast iron engines ???
    I have been using this in most of the cars and now I’m concerned that I’m doing the wrong thing.
    It seems that this seems good in all cast engines and with alloy.
    PICTURE BELOW - -

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails
    Radiator Coolants - - Getting Serious-nulon-coolant.jpg

    This thread is very helpful. I have revised above a little but it seems that the Nulon can be used in all cast or cast with alloy engines without damage. The comment from Jaahn about soluble oil is interesting as a little Morris 8 of Michael's has it in, as the previous owner swears by it. We might look at that.
    Michael and I have a stash of the Evans waterless coolant to do two cars costing $1200. This includes the preparation containers of liquid to rid the system of water or whatever so yes, it is expensive. Michael thought he might put it in the '27 Crossley with the Lagonda type motor but is still sorting the car generally.

    Thanks, John, I'll keep reading over all the replies.

    PS. We took the '68 ID19B for a run yesterday. Pic is outside Thomsons Foundry Castlemaine.
    This car is the sweetest car ever.
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    Last edited by gilberthenry; 31st July 2017 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #28
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    Default Back in the '60s :)

    Hi
    Back in the '60s I was working on Rennos, some 750s and similar ilk. The usual problems with the alloy heads and the alloy plates at the ends and behind the water pump. Sometimes eaten away almost completely or big pitting. Not many alloy heads and stuff like that around generally. Usual comments about foreign rubbish etc from the old mechanics. Water was the coolant of the day.

    Then the R8s came out with their sealed cooing systems. Standard they had a special BP coolant R70/30 which was green; glycol, corrosion inhibiter and water. What a revelation when you pulled the heads off them. A bit sludgy looking and stinky but when you hosed the heads off they were sparkling clean and like new inside. The block and sleeves just washed out perfectly with no rust. We had never seen anything like that before !! Magic People looked at the results in wonder as it was all so clean.

    Now the down side of the R8s was the problem if they developed a leak and/or some one just filled them with water. Because of the high boiling point of the original mix, if you only used water they would boil early and the temperature light did not come on. So some over heated them if only using water straight. Otherwise they were really good. Of course it was just the start of the new coolants coming in and changing the face of coolant for ever. Even Folden got into the act after a while !! That's telling you everything is it not !!
    Jaahn
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    Hi
    After a bit of Googling I came across this reference in a forum. It might be useful to some here who like myself have been wedded to the old Castrol small cans of radiator corrosion inhibitor concentrate that are now not available. The poster said that the Caltex concentrate is a similar product for when glycol is not required. I have no other knowledge.
    https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/...&docFormat=PDF
    Cheers Jaahn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenfuego View Post
    I have used the Nulon concentrate for years in all types of engine at the recommended concentrate level without any sign of problems. In recent years after any radiator coolant change I have also used either distilled water or pure water (Nulon also sell Radiator & Cooling System water, demineralized water , in 5 litre @ $5 and greater containers) that is often on special at auto stores. The larger the container the cheaper the product.

    Tank water with the Nulon concentrate is just as good IMHO!

    Ken
    Ken,
    Have you or others who espouse the use of tank water in cooling systems have ever done a PH test?
    I'm thinking the effect cocky poo and the odd dead mouse may have.

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    As others have mentioned, glycol is not a corrosion inhibitor. Most glycol anti-freeze mixtures have corrosion inhibitors (Inorganic - usually silicone silicate). You can also add pure IAT corrosion inhibitors to an existing glycol solution, such as this.

    https://www.amazon.com/Prestone-AS11...tone+anti+rust
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    Cheers,
    John T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildebeest View Post
    Ken,
    Have you or others who espouse the use of tank water in cooling systems have ever done a PH test?
    I'm thinking the effect cocky poo and the odd dead mouse may have.
    Worse with possums....
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    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Worse with possums....
    Originally Posted by Wildebeest
    Ken, Have you or others who espouse the use of tank water in cooling systems have ever done a PH test? I'm thinking the effect cocky poo and the odd dead mouse may have.


    Hi
    To be honest what is the point of doing a test. Next day anything may have fallen in and changed the composition. As my old man would say "plenty of body that water" But then he also would say to the family as we drove past a dead beast or similar "take a good deep breath, plenty to go around"

    In the ol'days I would put out a clean bucket to catch some rain water after it had rained for a while. But in later years I worked where I could just help myself to distilled water. But really probably over the top for car motors. I would not be worried at all with normal 'potable water' if I had some proper corrosion inhibitor in there.
    Jaahn

    PS I guess Castrol stopped selling those small cans as there was no money in them. They were always a bargain price.
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    Icon14 Proof is in the boiling and tea leaves.

    Missed that bit about questioning PH of tank water. I have drunk a lot of tank water in the past and I sure hope that no one has P..H into it. Tank water makes a great cup of black tea, and unless you go foraging about in the six inches of sludge that forms on the bottom of rainwater tanks, (below the level of the exit spigot of the tank) the water itself appears clear and potable compared with the rusty, chemical laced water of most cities.

    Then in most city water supplies they put that there fluoride into the chemical mix also and also pool chloride and that really mucks up the tea taste, but is essential to purify any contamination that exists.

    I guess that could upset engines and copper /aluminium combinations in some engines and maybe that is why we NEED other "Stuff" to negate all that introduced modern cocktail of elements. It used to be said that in Melbourne the tap water was so pure, no need to depend upon rainwater, but Melbourne tap water has deteriorated in taste over the years to the point we filter for our drinking water. And of course I now use demineralized water in car engine coolant.

    I do worry about the chemicals in "protective" coolant mixes due to toxicity/danger to pets etc, in an environmental sense and, the reason that I noted the new mixes that are said to be better for the environment in the link I supplied (perhaps no one looked) and they would certainly be a consideration, but then we have often been sold on some better but costlier alternative and later find out we have been sold an expensive toxic pup!! or IT has some other bad downside...

    Rainwater can be collected as it falls on canvas and channelled into stoneware containers and that was always good enough to be used by battery sellers, but they tell me that urban contamination and natural rain acidity might make that collected rainwater suss for that purpose these days too, and demineralized water is fairly cheap at $5 for 4 litres and less at auto shops

    I guess I could go looking for some PH strips, but their use would only be half of the story these days.


    Ken

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    Dragging up an old thread, but I thought this article was really interesting; more to do with later cars, and doesn't mention French vehicles, but good info there on the chemical compositions.

    https://blog.fcpeuro.com/how-to-pick...t-for-your-car


    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Icon10 Ah the days when we had helpful threads. Good hearts and all.

    Pleasure to re-read this thread, lots of helpful information. Reminds me in the next clean-up of the garage, I need to check and see if I have any left over Castrol stuff in small cans - used to use that exclusively back in the morris minor, Austin seven days, now I just use the Nulon concentrate and try to buy it under $40 and closer to $30 if possible. Still using that with demineralized water and can usually buy that at Auto-barn approx. 5 litres for $5

    I usually have a couple on hand for use in other things as well (no additives with those) just clean steam. Thanks for the new link Stuey, will have to go and read the label on my last 5 litres of Nulon concentrate and check with your listed stuff.

    Hmmn crackers are going off around here, but still quite a bit of time till midnight, still better than the wild west artillery and munitions in some Melbourne Suburbs.. Hope yours is a happy and prosperous New Year with good health and vitality for all



    Thanks

    Ken
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    Onya Ken, Happy New Year. Stocking up to do the timing belt on the 206 and was just checking the coolant I'd bought...
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    2003 PEUGEOT 206 GTi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuey View Post
    Dragging up an old thread, but I thought this article was really interesting; more to do with later cars, and doesn't mention French vehicles, but good info there on the chemical compositions.

    https://blog.fcpeuro.com/how-to-pick...t-for-your-car
    Thanks for this Stuey. I woke up at 3 am today realising that I hadn't quite done the CX coolant change adequately yesterday, despite the pain, and have to repeat to process as I'm not sure quite whether some remnant fluid will dilute/contaminate the new stuff too much...… Bugger. Worth it for peace of mind though. Double bugger.

    Happy New Year to all though!
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    JohnW

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    The second change was MUCH faster and no skin was lost at all. All is now fine except I'm about one litre short of new coolant and everything is closed today. I've opted for the green Nulon 7-year concentrate. The stuff that came out looked perfectly bright green, nothing was coagulated although I realised that it was significantly contaminated with whatever exactly was in before. I'm now in control - that previous coolant was from a cylinder head job I paid for a couple of years ago and further complicated by air-conditioner evaporator and compressor change, which I also paid for.
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    I'm sold on the waterless coolants .... Basically becasue I have seen Jay Leno refer to it in his restoration logs. As in "Look at this, we last had this apart XX number of years ago .... No corrosion at all as we ran the evans coolant".



    The issue i have with it, is I'd need to rebuild the cooling system top to bottom before using it. Given the cost of the stuff, you wouldn't want any leaky .... leaking it away, or causing you to need to drain it (eg: imagine putting a fortune worth of the stuff in, then needing to change your clutch 3 months down the track .... You'd loose half of the stuff onto the floor trying to drain it).

    seeya,
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    I have started using this stuff recently.



    its about $11.00 at supercheap. I just mix it with water from a rainwater tank.

    My grandfather said years ago they used to just use 100% glycol in the Renault 10s. When the gycol coolants first came out it was incredibly cheap, so they used to by large drums of it and use it pure. They were the only people that never had issues with head corrosion.

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    Don't confuse the purpose of anti-freeze/antiboil and corrosion inhibitors. If you are never worried about freezing/boiling, then water with a corrosion additive is OK as it is an excellent heat transfer medium. Once you start adding increasing amounts of anti-freeze, you may run into heat transfer issues and that is why you might find waterless coolants need nano additives to work effectively. It's a case of knowing the application and making a judgement.
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    Icon10 For us active mind owners no more waking up at 3am!...Looks good..

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I'm sold on the waterless coolants .... Basically becasue I have seen Jay Leno refer to it in his restoration logs. As in "Look at this, we last had this apart XX number of years ago .... No corrosion at all as we ran the evans coolant".

    The issue i have with it, is I'd need to rebuild the cooling system top to bottom before using it. Given the cost of the stuff, you wouldn't want any leaky .... leaking it away, or causing you to need to drain it (eg: imagine putting a fortune worth of the stuff in, then needing to change your clutch 3 months down the track .... You'd loose half of the stuff onto the floor trying to drain it).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Sounds good and I guess if we can get it here about the same comparative price worth a try, Might be real good for engines that stand some time between use providing no leaks in the system.

    I might get my son to take the jump into this with his Porsche Cayenne (the apple of his eye) when we delivered it by road to Queensland it had some sort of known malfunction to do with the coolant bottle in that when it stopped after driving say 100 km or lesser distances the coolant bottle would eject the coolant and then continue syphoning. Easy fix we found, was to simply lift the bonnet and unscrew the coolant bottle to release pressure and that stopped the ejection of coolant and need to top up after each stop.


    I'd bought Nulon concentrate at Echuca where we first noticed this effect and also demineralized water, but once we worked out the coolant cap release on stopping all was o.k to get through to Brisbane.


    He has had the faulty coolant bottle replaced as per recommendations from other Porsche users and also the air conditioning serviced so with that investment already put into the car, I think he would see the waterless coolant as an investment for the life of the car, and so not so problematic about price as he should be able to afford it (maybe with a little more help from Dad) The only issue might be the higher boil point as the Porsche has so many sensors in the system. I'll get him to check that.


    Loves his car almost as much as I love all of mine even if mine are less expensive! Now if I could get rid of his old 944 he left here and the identical (race toughened) body shell in my garage...life would be perfect..


    Thanks for posting the Utube video Shane. Great help.

    PS I sort of smiled at the waking thing at 3am and re-capping on events. Active minds do that. as I discovered over many years, before sorting out that issue too.


    Ken
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    I've just used the Nulon green concentrate in the CX for a full coolant change. For many years I used the little tins of Castrol anti-corrosion concentrate with tank water with perfect results. I can't recall why I changed to BP Coolant but it worked perfectly too.

    Last year I had a good think about waterless coolant and decided it wasn't for me, for much the same reasons that Shane cited. I can catch 90% of the CX coolant, even when draining by pulling off the bottom hose from radiator to heat exchanger, using a large tray. But on the roadside??? Phew. I reckon the stuff is OK if money is no object and the cars don't travel serious distances (and if money is no object for backup if you break down) but, for example something fails half way to Bendigo or Mildura... And that's in the cabbage patch, distance-wise. What I remember also is that the vehicles run a bit hotter, as it hasn't the specific heat of water or glycol/water mixtures. Interesting and there is a niche for the stuff. But it isn't my niche.

    I heard that the first Renaults to use coolant in Oz were the R4s. No more head corrosion....

    One good thing about glycol coolants is the high boiling point, as David S just pointed out. I've measured 107 degrees for Peugeot's branded product and that's without a pressure cap.

    Regarding the Cayenne (an expensive pleasure), it raises again in my mind why the system needs to be pressurised if the coolant temperature is well below 100 degrees. I'm presuming it is about preventing boiling in the cylinder head or around the cylinders?
    Last edited by JohnW; 2nd January 2019 at 12:34 PM. Reason: David S post....
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Don't confuse the purpose of anti-freeze/antiboil and corrosion inhibitors. If you are never worried about freezing/boiling, then water with a corrosion additive is OK as it is an excellent heat transfer medium. Once you start adding increasing amounts of anti-freeze, you may run into heat transfer issues and that is why you might find waterless coolants need nano additives to work effectively. It's a case of knowing the application and making a judgement.
    Yes its interesting. The only reason you would bother to listen to Jay Leno is he actually drives those cars. And it gets quite hot where those cars are garaged ( He overheated one of his restorations doing a story on it ....). I think if the waterless coolant had any issues he would mention them

    I wonder if Evans donate the coolant to him as he is such good advertisement.

    seeya,
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    I continue to use the green Nulon and it seems fine - - with rainwater out in the country.

    Now Michael, with his expensive 1927 Crossley decided to change to the waterless Evans. It was REALLY EXPENSIVE which didn't bother him too much if it worked. He went through all the steps with preparation etc but from then on had all the trouble in the world with boiling.
    He gave up in the end and "chucked the lot". He's back to Nulon I think or maybe another one.
    It could be "RED LINE synthetic oil WATER WETTER SUPER COOLANT - - - helps control overheating."

    This I got from UP THE CREEK VINTAGE & VETERAN W/SHOP in Castlemaine. This w/shop works on very expensive cars. I put this in our French 1914 TH. Schneider because I was told to. Now I don't usually do what I'm told but with a very expensive car like our TH. Schneider I tend to listen. So other than the Th.Schneider I use Nulon and I don't really know much about this RED LION brand other than it seems fine so far ??? !!!
    I bought it from them and I don't recall seeing it anywhere else

    John
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    I continue to use the green Nulon and it seems fine - - with rainwater out in the country.

    Now Michael, with his expensive 1927 Crossley decided to change to the waterless Evans. It was REALLY EXPENSIVE which didn't bother him too much if it worked. He went through all the steps with preparation etc but from then on had all the trouble in the world with boiling.
    He gave up in the end and "chucked the lot". He's back to Nulon I think or maybe another one.

    John
    I'd love to find out what is going on there .... That evans stuff doesn't boil until 190degrees C if you read the specs!!!

    Surely the engine would melt down before you would boil that. I figured the boiling point would be another great reason to run it. You would **remove** the pressure cap and run unpressurised. The only reason to run a pressurised cooling system is the raise the boiling point. However if your coolant doesn't boil until 190degrees, you can take all that pressure and stress off the hoses, water pump seals etc... by running un-pressurised.

    edit:



    Wow .... That will be thermo-syphon right ?? Ok, I'm running for the hills as I have no idea how various coolants will work without a water pump pushing them around!

    seeya,
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    Icon5 Idle thought on cooling systems and heat/boiling

    Just theorising on a pressurised sealed coolant system there is usually (well on the Fuego) a heat activated switch that turns the radiator coolant fans on fitted in the water transfer pipe. Perhaps the special coolant is not activating it at that point, or there is a build-up of localized heat in the head or adjacent to the combustion area that exceeds in that spot only the higher boiling point.


    I really can't see how that would happen, though I know that Jo Proffi did a lot of testing around his hard driven Fuego with an infra red heat gun and found quite a difference in temperatures around the engine. I don't have the figures to hand as I didn't save them mainly because I don't try to push my cars past any limits. And the Fuego's only boil if some part of the system develops a pressure leak.


    Anyway just a thought, other cars may be quite different, especially those that are not pressurized in any way.

    Ken

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    I've heard of R12s boiling instantly if a hose fails. I think it must be that the coolant in the head/sleeves area is so hot it boils unless pressurised. If you had a higher boiling point fluid it might help, but only if the fluid had a high enough heat capacity to carry the heat away, otherwise I think it would just get hotter and hotter until it boils.

    Heat guns are really good for understanding things - a simple example is measuring the temperature of fluids entering and leaving the radiator so check something is actually happening there. If it is boiling but not too hot, it might be a head gasket with a slight leak - I've discovered this one the hard way....

    With the correct additives, and changed appropriately, water's amazing stuff.
    Last edited by JohnW; 2nd January 2019 at 05:03 PM. Reason: More thought....
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  25. #50
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Castlemaine Area
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    565

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    It could be "RED LINE synthetic oil WATER WETTER SUPER COOLANT - - - helps control overheating."

    This I got from UP THE CREEK VINTAGE & VETERAN W/SHOP in Castlemaine. This w/shop works on very expensive cars. I put this in our French 1914 TH. Schneider because I was told to. Now I don't usually do what I'm told but with a very expensive car like our TH. Schneider I tend to listen. So other than the Th.Schneider I use Nulon and I don't really know much about this RED LINE brand other than it seems fine so far ??? !!!
    I bought it from them and I don't recall seeing it anywhere else

    John[/QUOTE]

    Okay, it looks like this RED LION WATER WETTER comes from California and that's why I haven't seen it around, other than the "Up The Creek Workshop" in Castlemaine. I've taken some pics and will study the bottle more to try and work out why this particular product is the one they choose for veteran & vintage cars. Yes, the TH> Schneider is thermosyphon ( no water pump ).
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