DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.
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Thread: DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Default DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.

    I have sold my ID19½. Double what I paid for it too... well, in theory, because what I spent on it... still, price-wise only, double.
    So my warehouse space is a bit empty and I'm looking at cars.
    I've been discussing one with the owner (a mechanic, he doesn't really know these cars - but then, nobody in Spain actually does).

    Problem is, it's in Soria.
    If you think Europe is a small and well-connected place... rethink Soria.
    An Australian parallel could be... Ayers Rock. Actually, a few miles above Ayers Rock, reachable by hot-air balloon only.

    I have asked far and wide if anyone knows anyone in or near Soria who could go look at it, and I've been swamped by scientific studies proving that Soria... doesn't exist.
    So I managed to set up a video call via whatsapp with the owner showing me the car.
    He may be a mechanic but as a cameraman... anyway, I got a general idea of the car's shape.
    Not promising, but not too bad for other things.
    It's a full 21 Pallas, '72, Jubilé. Gris nacré, granate everything - including dash...
    Rust on doors and boot, plenty. I can fix.

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    Rust on frame...
    Here goes the question:
    judging by this picture (I'm not going to Soria to stick a screwdriver in there)... how bad does it look?
    Would I really have to take the car apart (seats, linings... it's a Pallas...) to fix it properly, or do you think it can be done from underneath by a half-skilled welder?

    Educated guesses welcome.


  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
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    Hello, fly to Madrid and get the train. Looks a nice place. Have a holiday with all the dosh from the sale!

    The welding looks do-able but you might have a conflagration if you don't remove the trim.

  3. #3
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    Hi,
    Am I right in saying that's the left side of the car? If so the hydraulic lines and rear wiring loom go along the outside of that box section ( above the aluminium covers) so a welder would need to be aware of them and depending how bad the rust is they may need to be removed. Interior carpet removal is easy enough and will give a good idea of the state of the area where the box section meets the floor.
    The DS Jubilee is a rare model and is worth saving. What price is the car? Hope this helps!

    Cheers,
    Ed

  4. #4
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    So is that a "Jubilee" but with a grey dashboard? I've heard of those but never seen one.

    Budge

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    No train in Soria, I'm afraid. 3 hours by bus (if you're lucky) from Madrid.
    And flying PMI-MAD (and back) in this season is... enough to make you crazy.
    I may be in love, but I'm certainly lazy.

    It has a red (granate) dash. Like the interior.

    I'm not too sure about interior carpet removal being easy enough on a Pallas.... just removing the front seats is reasonably annoying... so it would be a matter (assuming the rust is bad - it probably is) of... removing the seats, stripping the carpeting, and...
    ... right. The wires. How to go about those?

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    That's all along the join of the inner sill to floor. If you are lucky it's on the floor side and not in the bottom of the sill. Removing the trim is not hard, although old carpet is hard to salvage from the sills and it may break up when you try to pull it out of the stainless edging strip to reveal the securing screws. The rust is probably because water has been trapped under the bitumous sheeting placed on the floorpan before any trim is added. In the front, that's actually a bitumen-felt-bitumen sandwich stuck to the floor. I forget if the rear is the same or just bitumen sheet. You may want to consider getting rid of that anyway and replacing it with a butyl product like Dynamat on a plastic sheet moulded to fit the floor but still removable. Then you put your felt, foam and carpet on top.

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    As mentioned, Jubilee model is rare. They tend to bring a price premium when bought/sold. Not a Chapron type premium. But still.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using aussiefrogs mobile app

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    Thank God I'm a Frenchman harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    I thought the jubilee model had a burgundy interior only.

    Sent from my GT-P5110 using aussiefrogs mobile app
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  9. #9
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    There is rumoured to be a grey dash variant for grey seat cars. I don't think one seems to have ever been found though. When Don said his car was 'granate', I hoped he meant 'granite' (grey'). But of course he didn't. He meant just what he said - 'granate' (dark red)!
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  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    True that.
    The grey-dash Jubilé is officially extinct (M. Frelon seems to agree too).
    Maybe I could 3-D-print a grey dash, change the seat colour, (the car is gris nacré, an absolute "shark") and claim to have the only gray-dash Jubilé in the world. Hmmm...

    Truth is, those granate striped seats are so beautiful... but then, I could sell them, they're very rare, and not reproduced by anyone.
    Last edited by Don B. Cilly; 17th July 2017 at 07:57 PM.
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Bruce Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Having done rust repairs on Ds they are easy to fix in that area if you have access to a folder and guillotine. Definitely remove flammables! Given what the car is, what I can see is a 'nuisance' value repair, not a major calamity.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    So hey. I bought it.
    It's got issues. Don't they all.
    At 8K€, it's allowed a few. Pretty car, full-on 21, Jubilee, good upholstery, manual gears, carby.

    DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.-up.jpg

    Hydraulics are totally... cilly... it has a CX HP pump, hardly breaks, spheres are dead, but, since it's not BVH, I'm not too worried.

    What worries me a bit (as expected) is the rust.
    Boot space doesn't look too bad.
    Doors are... what they are. Not too worried there either. Just a little

    DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.-rugg2.jpg

    Structurally... here's what I'm looking at:

    DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.-rugg1.jpg

    Now. Question:
    Is it really worth it to patch that with steel plate when there is stuff available like the Fixmaster series by Henkel/Loctite with which i can fill the hole (rather than patch it) with an epoxy-metal mixture which is very likely stronger than the original material (basically vacuum) and it doesn't rust?
    Thoughts?

  13. #13
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    you really want to assess and resolve where the moisture is entering the car Don. Surely? Get the hose out if you're curious! The extent of the rust is only clear when you strip it back to see where rust starts and stops and then evaluate repair cost from there. Getting some decent section back in there wouldn't be too hard but how far through is it is the big question. If the rest of the car is good then a bodge job would result in making it more difficult later to resolve.

    ps filling the hole won't fix the problem, it will just continue to rust around the space you have filled!
    You should know that as a given!
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 19th September 2017 at 10:31 AM.

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm thinking that isn't the easy repair everyone thinks..... Cut the area out and take a look. You certainly can't just plate over it. You need to check the inner sills for rust and repair as necessary Certainly it should be a fun task!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
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  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Cut the area out and take a look.
    I did
    So now I'm beginning to see the problem better.
    Most of the rust is not on the beam, it's on the floor, under the carpet.

    DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.-int.jpg

    The beam itself doesn't look too bad.

    DS 21 purchase. Rust advice.-ext.jpg

    So OK, it's obvious enough that filling isn't much of an option there, welding is the way to go.

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I did
    So now I'm beginning to see the problem better.
    Most of the rust is not on the beam, it's on the floor, under the carpet.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	100018

    The beam itself doesn't look too bad.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So OK, it's obvious enough that filling isn't much of an option there, welding is the way to go.
    Excellent ... that looks simple enough to repair. What caused the rust in the first place
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Rust being iron oxide... oxygen
    Most likely in the form of dihydrogen monoixide (water).
    How the DHMO got in there is... anybody's guess.
    Thing is with DHMO, you can put up all the "no entry" notices you want, it still gets in. It can't read... failing anything else, it manages to condense out of thin air. And if the air is thick, it condenses even more. Hopeless.

    I wonder though. If one used used "Mother Goose's trick" and left little holes, so the DHMO could at least drain or evaporate out after it got tired of condensing in there...

  18. #18
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    the manual 814 2 has a section Operation No.D 980-00 on n where to plug and seal places of known ingress. From the photos you might be looking at the 4th,5th, 6th or 7th cases. Or a combination. The sill covers not sealing probably caused it but you'll figure it out. Cavity wax would be a good option when repaired successfully. Or even good old sump oil.

    You will have to sort out the jacking point by the looks of it?
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 20th September 2017 at 11:03 AM.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Don,
    Congratulations on the new acquisition...!
    It rusts in that spot mostly as the reinforcing cover strip underneath traps moisture between it and the floor - not because of water coming into the car - though of course that can be a factor.
    Drill out the spot welds and take this reinforcing piece off on both sides to have a good look.
    This is relatively simple to fix on its own depending on how bad it is.
    I would assess the WHOLE car for rust carefully as this will save you time and money as it will determine the best approach.
    If there is rust here there is likely rust elsewhere.
    If there is rust in the rear bulkhead and tank area as well then you may as well put a set of floors through the car.
    Andre Pol suggested this to me once and at the time I did not understand - I do now.
    It sounds like a lot of work but it's actually quicker, cheaper and simpler to do this with a better result than trying to weld in a heap of custom floor patches all over the place if the car is rusty elsewhere.
    You just end up chasing your tail as you uncover more and more rust.
    IMHO - assess the whole car and accurately determine where ALL the rust is before doing much more.
    The state of the doors is pretty typical for an unrestored car and can be repaired with repair sections.
    Hope this helps,
    Mark...
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  20. #20
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    These things were never rustproofed internally, just a quick blow of thin black paint over the outside. In period, Peugeot used to advertise having wax filled box sections. Also look at the bases of the rear screen "hoop" structure behind the bootlid hinges, and the framework atop the windscreen under the stainless steel trims. There are heaps of pictures of DS rust repairs done in Europe about the WWW.

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