C5 X7 suspension defect
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Thread: C5 X7 suspension defect

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    Fellow Frogger! Ceenine's Avatar
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    Default C5 X7 suspension defect

    Today I made contact with a lady with a C5 parked outside my office. The car was a 2011 C5 X7 Exclusive petrol. So I asked her how she liked the car. "Great except for the side movement of the car through road surface irregularities". So I offered to take the car (with her in the passenger seat) for a test run. So off we went and soon entered the Bass Highway on the outskirts of Devonport. Within 100 metres down the road the problem was very apparent. The backside of the car makes a left hand shift whenever the car travels over undulations. At say 100 km/hr the problem is very apparent. It is quite an unsettling movement not just an irritation.

    The car has travelled merely 28.000 km and like brand new except for this problem. So I guess her solution for rectification is to take it back to the used car seller in Hobart and ask them to follow up under their guarantee as a used car trader or to follow up individually using the assistance of this forum.

    Any suggestions as to the rectification would be appreciated. By the way, I own a 2011 C5 X7 Tourer diesel, so I have the experience of how well these vehicles travel. My friend has had a 2010 C5 X7 and a C5 mark l before her latest vehicle, so she knows what to expect.

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    COL
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    There is a thread on here somewhere about this problem, and from memory I think the solution was to get the rear end alignment checked and adjusted as necessary.
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    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! Ceenine's Avatar
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    Col
    You are correct, thank you. I will wait for Greg to respond before I commit my friend to a rear end alignment (automotively speaking).
    Don
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    Hi Guys,

    I think your totally correct, a rear wheel alignment. Not sure why some do it so badly and others not.

    A friends new C5 2.0 HDI did it from brand new. I initially thought he was imagining things, but he gave the car to a member of his staff to drive, and the first thing he said was what was all the side to side choppiness.

    Our C5 has only low K's, and doesn't do it?

    Would be good to hear what the results are after the alignment.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    1000+ Posts gerry freed's Avatar
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    Tyre pressures, wheel alignment, sticky bearings at the top of the arms.
    Think Global - Ride on Spheres

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    Multilink, so no bearings. It could be alignment. Easily tested if you know somewhere with wheel alignment plates.
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    Fellow Frogger! Ceenine's Avatar
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    I would have thought that a rear alignment would need to be out quite a lot to give the displacement at the rear that is experienced. From my inspection of the rear suspension diagram there is no alignment adjustment as there is on a Ford Mondeo MC.

    This car has done only 28,000 km! I can't imagine that the bushes are stuffed. Logically more likely to be a malfunctioning sphere, but I failed mechanical engineering at kindergarten so how would I know?

    This problem is no small wiggle, it feels like a real shift of the back end, like 7 on the richter scale if the car was an earthquake.
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    I run my C5 over a set of plates (slip testers) every couple of years - just drive on a pair sitting on or in the floor, and stop. There is an instant readout of brake distribution and wheel toe-in on both axles. I don't get charged. The workshops with these gadgets buy them to bring in work.

    The advanced ones can read out brake deceleration as well as toe-in..


    PS The aim is to have no side slip on the machine.
    Last edited by seasink; 30th June 2017 at 11:13 AM.

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    Hi Ceenine,

    It's pretty hard to put in writing what someone else is experiencing when you drives a car to diagnose a problem.

    My personal experience with our C5 and that of others (&C6s) is a that there is a side to side rocking motion similar to the front to rear motion that any normal car experiences in undulations. On some cars this extremely noticeable.

    At the end of the day, this car may have something altogether different wrong with it, and may well be beyond the ability of the forum to diagnose it.

    There is a Citroen Mechanic in Tassie (Craig Salmon) who did his apprenticeship with Chevron Motors in Sydney. Not sure what he's doing these days, but he did operate a Citroen repair shop, and some one like Craig might be you best bet for a solution, and an inspection of the rear end.

    As for the adjustment on the rear suspension, I suggest that you put you nose under the rear of your car and look at the adjustable link ahead of the rear wheel. Its the one with a clamp so the link can be shortened or lengthened.

    Why do you think so many have said rear wheel alignment if there wasn't any!

    Maybe just a conspiracy to confuse everybody?

    ROFLOL

    If you read the instruction from Citroen when adjusting the rear suspension, it advises that it need to be done with the engine running, so my thoughts are that any difference in height has a detrimental affect on the alignment.

    I also stated elsewhere, that its not worn bushes, but bushes that have settled since the car was manufactured. The whole rear end is full of rubber bushes.

    The two extra rear spheres are the rigidity spheres. These give the car the soft version of the ride, and when cut out the firmer ride. I really don't think these are the cause of the problem, as spheres just go flat. and if it's not the rear alignment, It's more likely something damaged on the rear suspension.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Last edited by Greg; 30th June 2017 at 11:43 AM.
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    This Mr Salmon? French car care

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Yes........

    I've known Craig for a very long time, and he worked with Les Francis, who was and still is an exceptional Citroen mechanic.

    I would think Tassie is very lucky to have a repairer like Craig.

    best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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    Fellow Frogger! Ceenine's Avatar
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    Thanks Greg, seasink and others. The reason I suggested that there may be no adjustment is that someone here or the FrenchCar Forum (UK) suggested that was so.

    I am even beginning to think that the rear left wheel may even have hit a curb and not fixed properly. That may have been the reason why someone sold the car at a mere 28,000 km. I will report back when rectified so that it may help someone else in the future.
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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    The aligner will need to use E series sockets to loosen and tighten the turnbuckles on the rear toe-in arms.

    I only feel sideways movement in my X7 when I hit a pothole with a back wheel and it loses contact momentarily while changing suspension elevation. I have never felt it in Citroens with trailing arm suspension but I don't notice it anymore after 8 years in the X7.

    Cheers, Ken

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    Ken
    Thanks, I will do some comparison trips over certain potholes with my X7 and compare to my friend's X7 although one is a sedan and the other a tourer. Sure is a weird sensation.
    Don
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ceenine View Post
    Ken
    Thanks, I will do some comparison trips over certain potholes with my X7 and compare to my friend's X7 although one is a sedan and the other a tourer. Sure is a weird sensation.
    Don
    Hi,
    We have a 2010 Tourer 3.0 HDi, it had the same sideways movement in the rear when we purchased it.
    This did not concern me at all as the rear links had just been replaced and it had not been realigned.

    After the alignment it handled perfectly. The technician said one side was 15mm out.
    No wonder it moved sideways on bumps......

    Cheers
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    Fellow Frogger! Ceenine's Avatar
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    My friend came in today having had the front tyres shifted to the rear and new Toyo tyres placed on the front. A rear wheel alignment was then performed. Unfortunately all was to no avail. More plainly, the skip in the rear remains. Where to from here? Maybe the bushes are to blame. How to check them - visual or dynamic?
    Don
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    COL
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    Hi Don

    Do you have the before and after wheel alignment figures?

    Another thing to try is to try the new front tyres on the rear.

    Also what are the condition of the shocks? I know it has not done a lot of K's.

    There has got to be something fundamentally wrong, just need to find it.
    Regards Col

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    Default Incompetant Wheel aligners !

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceenine View Post
    My friend came in today having had the front tyres shifted to the rear and new Toyo tyres placed on the front. A rear wheel alignment was then performed. Unfortunately all was to no avail. More plainly, the skip in the rear remains. Where to from here? Maybe the bushes are to blame. How to check them - visual or dynamic?
    Don
    Hi Don
    I do not know anything about your friends problem. But i do know that I have had several incompetent wheel alignments done over the years. On my C5 and 2xVW transporters. In all cases I redid the alignment myself on a flat floor with a tape etc. To my satisfaction and reduced the obvious wear on the new tires.

    Why is it so ?? The operators do not use the equipment as they should and believe the inbuilt computer specs which are often wrong or mis-interpreted as they do not understand "foreign cars" and the way the specs are checked under specific conditions.

    I would take it back to some place who knows what they are doing and with the full alignment procedure from Citroen in hand. Aussie places can be sooooo slack with the details. Then they blame it on the car !!
    Jaahn
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    Fellow Frogger! Ceenine's Avatar
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    Thanks Col and Jaahn, I was not involved with the rear alignment so I don't know if the correct specifications were used. I understand that the front tyres were put on the back, the rear tyres committed to a rubber burial ground and new Toyos put on the front. How the vehicle needed a new pair of tyres is beyond me as the vehicle had done only 28,000 km as the original Michelin Primacy tyres should have lasted longer. Mine lasted for 46,000 kms consistently (second lot just replaced at 92,000 kms).

    If the bushes are at fault, I need to somehow test them. Putting each side on a jack and moving each wheel around may exhibit some extraneous movement do you think. If I do find an errant bush I would have thought finding one of the correct specification should be available in Aust. I checked on some UK parts sites and they show the bushes which are probably commonly required. One is the Hub carrier bush. It looks quite specialised for its function (not generic). Another is a track control arm which could also be the culprit having a bush at either end. Doesn't look too expensive either.
    Don
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    Were you able to stop the car on test plates? You'll get a rear toe in check and any side slip on the rear axle instantly.
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    Hi Ceenine
    I had my say, but if it was done at a tire shop or similar then it was not done properly I would be prepared to say !! I will bet the machine computer just said a C5 rear is not adjustable so they did nothing.
    If you just put pressure on the wheels in all directions, with a bar or a piece of wood to help, you will find any failed bush. But not expected at that milage unless an incident has occured.
    My suggestion is to take it to a flat car park, pull up in a straight run, and do an optical alignment check on the rear wheels. Just get down and carefully sight along the rear outside edge towards the front. Do it carefully so you can see the back edge then the front edge of the rear wheel as you move your head, then look past, at the front wheels to see they are pointing to. Do both sides and check they are identical. I will bet one is pointing half a front tire width different from the other

    Actually if you have a "good eye" you will see it easily without much work. I always see cars as I walk around and see they are out grossly.

    Of course you could see if you can find a place with the slip plates seasink is talking about. Instant answer with them.
    Good looking, Jaahn
    PS I sent an email message.
    Last edited by jaahn; 12th July 2017 at 01:22 PM.
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    COL
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    Another way on what Jaahn has said if your eye is not that good is to use a piece of string at the centre height of the wheels.

    check both sides, they should be indentical.
    Regards Col

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    Quote Originally Posted by COL View Post
    Another way on what Jaahn has said if your eye is not that good is to use a piece of string at the centre height of the wheels.
    check both sides, they should be indentical.
    Hi Col
    I regret to say that it is not possible to get a string line near the center height of the wheel edges in any modern car.
    Except perhaps one with some marginally illegal wide wheels
    You could do some off sets from a string line but that requires some work and setup.
    I have setup motorbike wheels for years by eye in a couple of minutes. Gave up using strings and boards and stuff as too clumsy.
    Jaahn

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    COL
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Col
    I regret to say that it is not possible to get a string line near the center height of the wheel edges in any modern car.
    Except perhaps one with some marginally illegal wide wheels
    You could do some off sets from a string line but that requires some work and setup.
    I have setup motorbike wheels for years by eye in a couple of minutes. Gave up using strings and boards and stuff as too clumsy.
    Jaahn
    I didn't say it was going to be easy.
    Regards Col

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Guys,

    A couple of things here......

    I've been told that when doing the rear wheel alignment on the X7 (the front asa well), the engine needs to be running, so the height stays constant.

    This leads me to to question as to whether the height shouldn't be checked to be correct before doing the alignment.

    A lot of the bushes used on the original X7's have now been beefed up a bit, especially the front rear lower arm bush. Putting the car up on a hoist gives you a very good view of all the bushes.

    On one C5X7 we had, you couldn't hear that the front bottom rear bush was gone in normal driving, but slowly moving forward or backward on a flat driveway, and braking hard, you could hear the clonking

    The rear hydraulic strut bushes are not replaceable.Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

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