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Thread: CITROEN C5 Why didn't the X7 sell?

  1. #26
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Shane,

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    If you want to bag cars that are more form over function, then you have to include the CX...........There is very little headroom, the seats are on the floor, and working on them is mostly a nightmare. The stupid longerons really served little purpose, and only complicate the whole underfloor.

    Our C5 X7 really tick all the boxes, to stay in production for 9 years without a facelift is testament that Citroen got it right the first time around.

    And by the way, the X7 out sold the 407 2 to 1!

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Yes, I had to remove that ridiculous seat height adjustment mechanism so that my hair was not continually rubbing the head lining.
    Servicing operations require universally jointed elbows and wrists! BUT the longerons whilst they do add thickness to the under body structure and are not as aerodynamically efficient as the smooth under floor of a D or even a Traction, were conceived as a measure to insulate road noise from the unitary shell of the main body. Whether or not that is effective is up for debate. They were also designed to transmit frontal impact forces away from the passenger compartment by running those forces down and under the car. This purpose when combined with the deliberately designed progressive crumple rate forward structure made for a very safe motor car.
    Last edited by gerrypro; 10th July 2018 at 08:58 AM.
    Cheers Gerry

  2. #27
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    Hi Gerry not bad at all,
    ,
    I actually liked the last Commodore, and think it's sad to loose our local car production. I think both Ford & GM continued to build cars that were just too big.

    It's going to be interesting to see how the PSA Opel Commodore replacement pans out?

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  3. #28
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Gerry,

    The longerons caused lots of problems in an accident, because they would crumple, so to replace them was a body off operation, and big bucks!

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  4. #29
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Shane,

    If you want to bag cars that are more form over function, then you have to include the CX...........There is very little headroom, the seats are on the floor, and working on them is mostly a nightmare. The stupid longerons really served little purpose, and only complicate the whole underfloor.

    Our C5 X7 really tick all the boxes, to stay in production for 9 years without a facelift is testament that Citroen got it right the first time around.

    And by the way, the X7 out sold the 407 2 to 1!

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Actually, the worst points of the CX are small boot, little rear doors and that windscreen.... They are SO HOT to travel in. They are a million times better than a 407 to travel in. The seats you could sit in "forever". The ride quality is way beyond what a 407 would ever dream of ... and I don't think I've ever grounded out a CX. The wagons were brilliant. Incredibly, the head room is far far worse in the 407 than the CX... I wonder if a CX with a sunroof is as bad as the 407 (I doubt it). You can tell just by looking at the outside shape of the C5 X7 is suffers from serious lack of headroom. You can't have "sleek" on the outside and boxy and large on the inside

    To be fair we are talking X7 C5, not 407. The X7 will sit higher, it will have better ride quality. I bet it has the same absolutely woeful rock hard seats though (seriously, how can a 4wd designed 45 years ago be more comfortable to travel in ). Better ride quality, more room, far, far better seats and seating positions.

    It's easy to criticise families these days needing "4wds" ... But the reality is ... 40 years ago, all the baby boomers had access to big family wagons... these day there is not really any such thing as a big family wagon ( the falcon wagons would have been this ... but were replaced with the territory that is a "raised" 4wd type vehicle so that it will appeal to the masses).

    For myself I'd get a C5 X7 tomorrow .... without a seconds consideration ... as a family car though, it would suck just like the 407 ... it's been relegated to "school droppoffs and around town". So still does the majority of the milage, but all short trips.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  5. #30
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    I mostly use it in country running. The best is around 9.5/100k and the overall consumption sits around 10.9-11.1/100k. Not really too shabby given the capacity of the engine. Plus it will tow quite a sizeable load ( at greatly elevated consumption figures ----around 17's)
    It has now travelled 235,000k and still runs extremely well although it could do with a new seal on the trans input!
    Wow .. I'm averaging about 30L/100km out of the lowest powered thirstiest V8 ever made at the moment ( No, really, I'm serious ... ).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  6. #31
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    C5 seats vary. Those with black cloth covers tend to be like the P407 and C4, but much softer than the Germans makes like to fit. The leather seats in the upper range C5s are soft and very comfortable. It comes down to manufacturer's spec, because Faurecia makes most of them.

    It seems we now have sports car pretensions when it comes to seating. You can hurl around corners rally-style in a C5, but who does?

    My preference would be a return to P505 woolies.

  7. #32
    1000+ Posts brenno's Avatar
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    I'm reasonably surprised to admit that Shane is bang on here. We have an X7 in the family and were looking at one of the new 2016 models about a year back. I found a 2008 Comfort on Carsales that had extremely low mileage on it and was less than the price of a new Yaris so it was easy to justify as a spare car. It's easy to see why they didn't sell more;

    * The packaging is very poor. The interior is tighter and less practical than the body size indicates. Place it next to a large car in the next class down and you scratch your head wondering how they made it that bad
    * Interior ergonomics is laughable at first, then after a while you just sit there internally screaming at some of the Really Dumb Things you have to use every day. The previous C5 is much better in this regard
    * The hatch back thing cannot be over estimated. The boot space could have been much better utilised whilst keeping the appearance of a sedan (like a Xantia or Superb)
    * It's a ponderous and slow old thing despite a decent amount of torque on paper
    * Value for money in the market
    * The dealers appear to be in a nation-wide competition to sell the least amount of cars
    * They really don't handle all that well. Steering feel is non-existant
    * Given they don't handle that well, why on earth would you put 19" wheels on it? This shows they do not understand the target market
    * Fuel economy is surprisingly poor for a diesel
    * Choice of transmission. If they had a manual gearbox I wouldn't blink at spending $50K on a new one despite all the other foibles
    * Won't go up my suburban driveway without scraping. Yes you can wait 20 seconds to raise it but that gets old quick smart

    Despite the long list of major flaws it's staggeringly good on a long run without any corners.

  8. #33
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    I am also surprised to agree with Shane. I owned an older C5 and it felt like sitting in lounge chairs. I loved my 406. The 407 just so small inside it was out of the question. I can sit in the back of a 207 easier. A visit to a car museum this week and the rear seat legroom in older family cars so much better than modern cars.

    I have not tried a newer C5 for size.

    A 308 is our French car and for longer trips a Nissan Patrol. I never wanted a Patrol, it came ex mine site when my job disapeared. Despite all its apparent flaws it has become something that I can not live without. It takes me everywhere that I want to go with ground clearance and places that you would not go in a modern car. We love the 308 and also the Patrol.
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  9. #34
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Gerry,

    The longerons caused lots of problems in an accident, because they would crumple, so to replace them was a body off operation, and big bucks!

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Yes they probably did cost a lot to repair. But did they do their job of absorbing forces? And was the car really worth repairing after the incident?
    Cheers Gerry

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    Would be so hard being a C5 engineer. There would be some who thought the seats were too hard, some would think they were like a lounge chair and then some (like me) that thought they were just excellent!

    Then there is the issue of front overhang. On the one hand, they may be inclined to reflect some of the styling of what was their most successful model (DS). On the other hand, do you chop some off the front to make it easier to get up driveways?

    Similarly, do you maintain the reputation of superior ride comfort, or do you stiffen the suspension (even more than Sport mode) so that it goes around corners faster?
    CITROEN C5 Why didn't the X7 sell?-hydractive-suspension.png
    Do you do away with some of the internal aesthetics (eg wide padded armrests) in favour of less attractive, but more practical, storage space?
    Do you fit larger rims (eg 19” or 20”) to the more expensive models like many other manufacturers do, or stick with the more traditional smaller ones. Many agree that the larger rims look better, but may slightly detract from the excellent ride.

    Fortunately, I am happy with the decisions the engineers made and so have no regrets about owning the car. With 177kw of power and 450Nm of torque and the economy of a diesel, it is a pleasure to drive. It is the only car we have had that has attracted a number of unsolicited favourable comments (19” rims and all!).
    Last edited by turnbull151; 2nd July 2017 at 09:28 AM.
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    Well said Turnbull151
    For the mid to large sedan or hatch, I can't put my finger on an equivalent other manufacturer car that after 5-6 hours driving gives me the same 'feeling'. As part of work I regularly hire cars, so I do have the opportunity to compare. Oh dear, emotions and how to measure and quantify.......I really like my C5

    If it is interior space, there is another vehicle segment that has been forgotten due to the SUV revolution - the people mover. Grand Picasso, Scenic, Honda, VW and Toyota offerings are not exactly filling the roads either.

    There're compromises with whatever vehicle you choose, it's a bit sad we can't choose a new C5 or a successor to the current model

    Cheers
    Jason

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    Attachment 97497

    Hi Jerry,

    Yes I'm sure they did do their job of absorbing forces, by very often the body shell was replaces any way. At Citco & Bryson's we always kept two CX shells in stock, and at Maxims only one. Insurers were different the way they treated a repair in those days

    Today they would just be written off.

    John Hunter is Sydney did all the body changeovers, and did an excellent job.

    Our CX2500 had had a body changeover, and you just couldn't tell, what made me realise that it was a new shell was when I did the headlining, there was a crossmember at the rear that was missing. They deleted it later on for more headroom, and only the latest shells came without the crossmember. The longerons were bolted on, and not welded.

    The present owner also says that the chassis number was welded onto the shell, something I missed (or can't remember!!)

    Best regards,

    Greg
    We Have:
    C5 HDI Exclusive 2.7 '09, Pluriel '09, Berlingo 1.6 HDI '10, C4 VTS coupe. C4 Picasso '08, 2CV Charleston '84 Grey, 2CV, '55 Australian delivered. 15/6 H '55, SM '74 BVM, DS21 EFI BVH, DS21 '67 BVH.
    We Had:
    1930C6F, '73 GS1220 wagon X 2, '75 G special, '75 GS panel van, '74 GS Birotor, '82 GSA panel van with factory AC, '85 CX25GTI BVM, 2002 C5 V6, 2006, C5 S2 HDI, '86 BX19GT, '72 DS21 BVM, '55 15/6H, '54 Lt 15,'73 Dyane, '82 Visa Super X, with Chrono Mecs & factory AC, 1972 SM.

  13. #38
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Attachment 97497

    Hi Jerry,

    Yes I'm sure they did do their job of absorbing forces, by very often the body shell was replaces any way. At Citco & Bryson's we always kept two CX shells in stock, and at Maxims only one. Insurers were different the way they treated a repair in those days

    Today they would just be written off.

    John Hunter is Sydney did all the body changeovers, and did an excellent job.

    Our CX2500 had had a body changeover, and you just couldn't tell, what made me realise that it was a new shell was when I did the headlining, there was a crossmember at the rear that was missing. They deleted it later on for more headroom, and only the latest shells came without the crossmember. The longerons were bolted on, and not welded.

    The present owner also says that the chassis number was welded onto the shell, something I missed (or can't remember!!)

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Later CX's have more headroom and probably lack the brace to fit that later roof lining. My CX has more head room than the XM we owned. You see the roof lining is just fluffy shit in the later cars, covered with "sponged back" fabric that disintegrates with age as the lining material. So the headliner follows the shape up into the roof providing more headroom. The ( absolutely spectacular) seats fitted to it sit you right down onto the floor to give more headroom. The seats absolutely suck for mobility restricted people. You must "fall" down into them... Brilliant until you have to try and extract yourself from the car.



    If the citroen engineers think the C5 seats are good ... they need to go try the cars sitting in there citroen museum. this is a bog standard CX series II interior for comparison purposes ( a DS pallas is much more lounge chair like than this though).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  14. #39
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    All cars today have "sports" seats, with projections on each side to keep you from falling off cornering, not lounge chairs like the Cits or Pugs of old. If your bum doesn't fit, tough. Blame the German makes - they started this fashion. Then everyone started to harden them up as well, just because Mercs do.

  15. #40
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    All cars today have "sports" seats, with projections on each side to keep you from falling off cornering, not lounge chairs like the Cits or Pugs of old. If your bum doesn't fit, tough. Blame the German makes - they started this fashion. Then everyone started to harden them up as well, just because Mercs do.
    So does the CX ... huge monster sized bolsters you must push past to sit down. but they are still soft. Try Renault Fuego seats ... same deal, nice soft seats but lots of bolstering to hold you into position.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    The answer is easy ... They produced the wrong car in the wrong time (just like falcon and commonbore). They are now a fashion symbol.... pretty shithouse as a family car. Take my wifes 407. The car itself is fine. The 6spd manual is great, the suspension is good for a "normal" car. that old 2litre diesel though laggy is great for it's time..... But gee's .... the car is shithouse.

    Lets look at a DS and CX for example. The wagons are vast ... absolutely enormous. They are true 7 seaters. The seating position is excellent. The seats are brilliant. The dyanmics of the cars are world beating. Now lets move onto to the 407 ... It suffers the same issues as most modern cars.

    The boot .... it's shithouse, it's not very big, the opening is weirdly shaped and small.... The inside, it's shithouse.... the seats are rock hard.... there is bugger all leg room in the back ... I'm only a little guy, I don't fit in the back unless I sit with my head on an angle. The front seats ... there shit, there rock hard... For an hour or so I find them quite good ... then they get REALLY uncomforable really fast. I'm a tiny guy, but I don't fit in the front ... my head is against the roof unless I have the seat layed back ( sadly I'm not a moron that drives along with the seat laying down and a cap on arse about to "look cool").

    You see, "fashion" says it must be "sleek and layed back"... so even though the car is very big on the outside, it is very small on the inside, and there is no head room. It must also sit "low" as that is the fashion. Which means we are forever smashing it's belly, nose and tail itno the ground.... There is no plastic left under it to smash off (for a long time) so you just let it crash into the ground. If you think I'm exagerting .... My shitty old 25+ year old 4wd has become the car we go everywhere in ... the 407 is just to small and squeezy and uncomfortable. A few days back we drove from Coffs Harbour over to byron bay .... The roads are so bad my wife actually said at one point "gee's we couldn't drive my car down these roads"). Just like a proper car (eg: CX or DS) The shitty old 4wd just ploughs over anything though, so not such a problem.

    When the 407 is replaced .... we are going to have to replace it with a pretend wank tank ... ie: a crappy pretend 4wd like every other middle aged women drives. The reason is .. the modern sedans are crap. The pretend 4wds are still "box shaped" so are usable. (ignoring the hairdesser cars like range rover evogues obviously). An X7 wouldn't even be considered. Why buy a large car that is tiny on the inside just so it "looks fashionable"

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    tell us how you really feel Shane !........... lol
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    " The dealers appear to be in a nation-wide competition to sell the least amount of cars "
    This one line is the the best so far to sum up the dismal rate of sales in Australia for both Citroen and Peugeot..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by furneauxfrogger View Post
    " The dealers appear to be in a nation-wide competition to sell the least amount of cars "
    This one line is the the best so far to sum up the dismal rate of sales in Australia for both Citroen and Peugeot..........
    Agreed, it certainly had nothing to do with the seats of the X7. In fact the seats of the Fuego weren't that good at all. They were toooo soft to provide real support. I had 3 of them.

    The best way to get the cars in front of the public is to sell them very cheap to the rental companies. Renault started this with the R10 and recently with the Koleos. This would have shown what a great ride the X7 has/had.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FNQ1000 View Post
    If it is interior space, there is another vehicle segment that has been forgotten due to the SUV revolution - the people mover. Grand Picasso, Scenic, Honda, VW and Toyota offerings are not exactly filling the roads either.
    Or this one may be suitable for transporting 9 people

    CITROEN C5 Why didn't the X7 sell?-9-seats.jpg

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnbull151 View Post
    Or this one may be suitable for transporting 9 people

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	9 seats.JPG 
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    Was also made as a 'hatch', and as early as 1938----called a Commerciale!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    C5 seats vary. Those with black cloth covers tend to be like the P407 and C4, but much softer than the Germans makes like to fit. The leather seats in the upper range C5s are soft and very comfortable. It comes down to manufacturer's spec, because Faurecia makes most of them.

    Ö snip Ö

    My preference would be a return to P505 woolies.
    After being the passenger in a VW Passat owned by a friend, I invited her to try the driver's seat in my 406. She complained that it was so soft that she would almost certainly fall asleep!

    Occasionally I get to sit in the 505 which is not at my house. I wouldn't be complaining about a return to those seats. Nor to the seats in my 1978 504 GL Special.


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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    C5 seats vary. Those with black cloth covers tend to be like the P407 and C4, but much softer than the Germans makes like to fit. The leather seats in the upper range C5s are soft and very comfortable. It comes down to manufacturer's spec, because Faurecia makes most of them.

    It seems we now have sports car pretensions when it comes to seating. You can hurl around corners rally-style in a C5, but who does?

    My preference would be a return to P505 woolies.
    But they weren't wool and didn't wear anything like as well as say the Xantia ll fabric or my Mi16 fabric . The weave was too "open"on the first 505.
    Last edited by Ceenine; 14th July 2017 at 06:02 AM.
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  23. #48
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    I was interested in a C5, and I learnt that their sale was discontinued in Australia in 2016. What has replaced C5, or, in other words, what do the froggies recommend to buy instead ?

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    I've just been through this exercise. Citroen currently has no direct replacement, so consider a Pug 508. I recently assisted a close relative trade into one to replace a V6 petrol C5. He's very impressed with it and that follows a long period of being diesel averse. If you lift the bonnet you would see almost the same as you would with a late C5.

    There are a few ex-corporate fleet / demos with very low kms on offer at quite attractive prices. You'd avoid the Adblue system if you buy a car with RHH in the VIN, which is one less thing to think about. There are a couple of near new/demo 1.6 turbo petrols on offer for a substantial saving vs the HDis, but be aware they were probably built in 2014 and evidently parked in the PCA bond store for a long time. If you don't like diesel, they are worth thinking about.

    Make sure you know exactly what you are buying by checking the build date, compliance date (both on stickers on driver's B-pillar), the warranty start date (you can see what PSA thinks it is via Service Box) and confirming the warranty period (Maybe e-mail PCA to confirm and get a response in writing?), which can confusingly vary from 3 years/100K upwards. Some of those cars on offer also have a date of first registration some months after the warranty supposedly began counting down. Most of those on offer are in NSW and Victoria, a fair way from Adelaide. The good news is you wouldn't use a lot of fuel driving one home!
    Last edited by David S; 10th July 2018 at 01:10 AM.
    seasink, danielsydney and antonio like this.

  25. #50
    Member diesel pete's Avatar
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    Totally agree that the X7 is an awesome car.

    I had a 2007 C5 V6 petrol exclusive hatch which went like a rocket although a bit thirsty on fuel and had a few minor and one big issue over the 4 years I had it. I upgraded to the X7 model in 2011 but opted for the Tourer (comfort version) as I didn't want a regular boot. When the lease ran out on that, I upgraded to a 2015 X7 Tourer exclusive version.

    The X7 is a quality car, great around town on the local roads but even better on the motorways and open road. The quality is the best I've had from Citroen, and it's incredibly reliable. I'm sad there won't be another C5 Tourer. The new C5 aircross looks interesting but I am guessing we will never see it in Australia given the seemingly clueless performance we are seeing from the clowns at Inchcape.

    As for the cup holder, I've always assumed that Citroen puts them in under sufferance.
    antonio likes this.

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