1974 DS 23 ownership begins!
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Thread: 1974 DS 23 ownership begins!

  1. #1
    Tadpole
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    Default 1974 DS 23 ownership begins!

    Hello all,

    I live in Maryland, USA and just imported a 1974 DS 23 IE from the Netherlands. The car looks nice and drives really well, so no complaints!

    Here is a link to a few pictures from the garage that sold it to me:

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    The one thing that is bothering me a bit is that the tips of the rear bumper on both sides touch the rear fenders and has created a scuff on them. Not sure if the bumper is mounted too close what.. I plan on taking the bumper off and investigating once it warms up a bit.

    If anyone has a quick pointer for me on how to fix it, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks.

    Shawn.
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  2. #2
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    Default Welcome to the tribe

    The rear fender needs to be careful handled to avoid the marks. Are you sure it has not just been poor handling by a prior owner?

  3. #3
    Tadpole
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    I am pretty sure as the tips still touch. Seems like the bumper about 1/4 inch forward than where it needs to be. Maybe it is a bit narrower than what it needs to be. Do the older cars have narrower bumpers, maybe?

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger
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    Welcome. Nice car. You might carry a piece of vinyl or leather to slip between the guard and bumper when removing it to save the paint. The stops on the bumper aren't really enough.

    The rear bar mounting bolts fit into a rubber bush inside a tube in the back of the body on each side. If the nut which you can see with the guard removed, has been overtightened, it compresses the rubber too much and pulls the bumper too far forward. The stop washer welded onto each long bolt at the bumper side of the mounting shouldn't be pulled inside the back of the mounting tube.

    It may just be too tight or the rubber may be no good. You can buy repro mounting rubbers or cut scrap radiator hose of different diameters and slip one inside the other to give the thickness needed. Hopefully, the mount doesn't have any rust as it is a very common area for extensive rusting.
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  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Shawn,

    There isn't really good pics of the back of the car to help diagnosis, but the the pic of the rear end shows poor alignment along the top of the guard and the bootlid, where as the alignment of the bonnet to the front guards is very good.

    So there are two things here to look at There is a lug along the side of the boot lid opening (held there by two cheese head screws) that the top of the guard should sit over. Maybe the guard isn't fitted correctly at the top, and that might be twisting the guards?

    Or, there are two steel dog leg brackets that come off the bumper brackets, one either side, and fitted with a rubber buffer. When these are fitted correctly, they should keep a distance from the guard to bumper end.

    The previous reply's are correct about removing the mudguards carefully so as not to scratch the paint. Davids suggestion re checking the rubber mount might also be useful, but even when the mounts are old they generally done cause the problem you have?

    Hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    Greg
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  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'm betting the bumper mounting tubes have rusted away and have been replaced with bolts that are not snug enough into the rubbers. So the bumper sits on an angle. I'm betting the blue ID19 here has that exact issue.

    Be careful pushing on the bumpers of "other peoples" D's to check the rear spheres ...... It's very embarrassing if the bumper breaks away as it has rusty tubes ( guess how I know this )

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Congratulations Shawn. i hope you're really going to enjoy your car.

    There should be two little brackets fitted inside the 'corners', or tips as you say, of your rear bumper. These have a little rubber stopper on them. The little rubber stopper sits in a little dimple in your rear wing - where the tips are - to keep the scratchy edge of the bumper and wing apart. Either you have these brackets but they are bent and so bumper and wing touch, or (more likely) they have rusted off! You can buy the little rubber stoppers and someone, somewhere probably sells the little brackets. i need pair myself! They are a very simple shape and easy to make something similar up.

    To investigate, carefully remove the rear fenders (it's easier than removing the bumper) and you should find these little 'z' shaped metal brackets tucked away inside the tips of the bumper. They share a bolt hole with the bracket that secure the bumper to the chassis. if they are there, they may be squashed flat against the inside of the bumper. You should also find that your fenders have little dimples close to where they seem to be scratched.

    Good hunting!

  8. #8
    Tadpole
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    Thanks all!

    I will take a look once the weekend comes around.. Saturday is supposed to be a nice weather.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stallhorn View Post
    Thanks all!

    I will take a look once the weekend comes around.. Saturday is supposed to be a nice weather.
    This just looks so wrong. . .





    The boot lid should run parallel to the guard, with a nice even gap!

    Read through Greg's post above, it certainly looks like the guard is sitting on the wrong side of the bracket on the rain channel on the boot opening - open the boot lid and check, if correct the bracket (about centre of the rain channel) should not be visible obscured by the guard. If this is the problem the guard will twist and possibly cause the rubbing.

    The other suggestions re the mount bracket rubber on the tub that the bumper bracket slides into is another possibility, but that wont solve the panel alignment boot to guards.

    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1974 DS 23 ownership begins!-ds-rear-guard.jpg   1974 DS 23 ownership begins!-ds-rear-guard2.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger
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    It's quite easy to weld the repro back end bits together in a way that makes it hard to fit the rear guards at the extreme rear end. I have made this error and had to cut and reweld portions to rectify it. Part of the problem is that the guards have a slight curvature as you look at them from above and the repro rain gutter edges are (or certainly were) folded straight. It's a nasty trap.

    There is probably some spring in the rear guards if they have to be pushed around to get them to bolt on.
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  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    This just looks so wrong. . .

    The boot lid should run parallel to the guard, with a nice even gap! Read through Greg's post above, it certainly looks like the guard is sitting on the wrong side of the bracket on the rain channel on the boot opening - open the boot lid and check, if correct the bracket (about centre of the rain channel) should not be visible obscured by the guard. If this is the problem the guard will twist and possibly cause the rubbing.

    Cheers
    Chris

    I hope all our ideas are making sense to you Shawn!

    I'd try to eliminate the easy problems/ solutions first. There is a little raised bracket half way along the length of each side of the boot opening. The guards should sit over the top of these. As Chris says, it might be that the guards have been wrongly pushed against these brackets. If so then the guard will get bent when it is pulled in line to put the chromed securing bolt in place. This bowing of the wing may push the bottom part out so that it rubs the bumper. This may give a wing that looks wrong, but shouldn't cause scratching if those little brackets I described are in place on the bumper.

    It's hard to tell from your pictures but it might be, (because the guard rubs the bumper if the guard is seated correctly in relation to the rain channel), that the big bracket that the single chromed bolt that passes through to hold the wing on the back of the car, has been shifted slightly towards to the centre of the boot to pull the wing in. This could have the effect of the bottom of the guard being pushed out and touching the bumper.......

    Go for simple first: check that the little 'Z' brackets and rubber bits i referred- to are in place and that wing is able to be correctly seated (i.e hooked over the little bracket along the sides of the boot opening) and secured without rubbing your bumper. If not, then the securing bracket on the back of the car near to the tail light might simply need re-aligning. If all this still can't produce a good result, then it might be that your bumper is out f alignment.

  12. #12
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budge View Post
    I hope all our ideas are making sense to you Shawn!
    I am an absolute rookie when it comes to this, but I think I am following the conversation. I am hoping it would make more sense once I take things apart this coming weekend. But I took the guard (fender?) off last night and I had to push it a bit to put the chrome bolt back on - which created the bulge in the picture Chris put up there (thanks Chris!). That makes it not fit into the rain channel of the boot. There are no Z brackets that I saw and no rubber bits.

    I am thinking to get a couple of big rubber washers and put them behind the guard and hope the bolt reaches the thread in the body (repro?). I will look and see if that helps with the gap between the lower part of the guard and the bumper.

    Also looking down at the end of the bumper, I see a metal dogleg piece with a rubber stopper on it, but it is the tip of the bumper that get to guard. I think it is the bulge that is working against me.

    As a background, I was told there was some rust removal done in the problem area - which may have involved cutting and welding - and there is always a risk of things falling out of alignment.

    Just to make sure - wing=guard=fender?

    Thanks all!

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I'm over in the UK. Over her we call a fender a wing
    and what we call a bumper, is what our Aussie friends call a guard?

    I think i've translated that right!

    That bracket that you are thinking of padding out with a rubber something - the one that the large chrome bolt passes through - should be adjustable in that you can make it longer. It's telescopic. If you adjust it, you shouldn't need to bow the wing (fender) to fix it.

    I think the dog leg bits you found on the bumper are the 'Z' bits i'm referring-to. When you get that rear bracket sorted out, you will be able to work out how much to bend the 'dogleg' bits by to stop the guards rubbing the bumper.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budge View Post
    I'm over in the UK. Over her we call a fender a wing
    and what we call a bumper, is what our Aussie friends call a guard?

    ....
    Almost - but a bumper is a bumper bar (or bumper for short) in Australia, and a wing or fender is a mudguard (or guard), as in "the rear end shows poor alignment along the top of the guard and the bootlid" (Greg).

    Cheers

    Alec

  15. #15
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stallhorn View Post

    Just to make sure - wing=guard=fender?

    Thanks all!
    lol

    Wing = Guard/Fender
    Trunk = Boot

    Just to get some perspective, this is how the 'wing' should fit to the 'trunk lid'



    From the parts manual



    The bracket on the rain gutter is made up of parts #17 and #20. #17 goes on the underside and has 2 threaded holes. This bracket has adjustment to set the correct position of the 'wing'

    Parts #26, #27 and #18 are the rearmost bracket that the wing bolts to. It has adjustments up/down/left/right and #26 can be moved fore and aft. #18 fits to the inside of the tub/chassis.



    I believe if you get get the 'wing' sitting correctly without having to apply a twist you should solve the rubbing problem. New tube rubber mounts for the rear bumper assembly should have it sitting away from the wing with sufficient clearance.

    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1974 DS 23 ownership begins!-d-rear-wing-parts.jpg   1974 DS 23 ownership begins!-rain-gutter-guard-bracket.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger
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    Bracket #17 + #20 is shown sideways in the picture. It's perforated face sits on the rain gutter and the little bend at the top faces outwards when installed. In original cars, that bracket is quite short and is mounted on a raised section of the gutter. The repro repair sections lack the raised section, so the bracket is made much longer to give the same overall height. It's meant to act as a hook to pull the guard in towards the car at the middle of the top edge. The final picture above shows a repro bracket fitted to a repro rain gutter after installation.
    Last edited by David S; 23rd March 2017 at 02:56 PM.

  17. #17
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    lol

    Wing = Guard/Fender
    Trunk = Boot

    Just to get some perspective, this is how the 'wing' should fit to the 'trunk lid'



    From the parts manual



    The bracket on the rain gutter is made up of parts #17 and #20. #17 goes on the underside and has 2 threaded holes. This bracket has adjustment to set the correct position of the 'wing'

    Parts #26, #27 and #18 are the rearmost bracket that the wing bolts to. It has adjustments up/down/left/right and #26 can be moved fore and aft. #18 fits to the inside of the tub/chassis.



    I believe if you get get the 'wing' sitting correctly without having to apply a twist you should solve the rubbing problem. New tube rubber mounts for the rear bumper assembly should have it sitting away from the wing with sufficient clearance.

    Cheers
    Chris
    That looks really nice. I am not sure mine would ever fit that nicely.

    I don't have #17 and #20 - at least not on the left side. I tried adjusting #26/27 but it didn't really help much and my fingers were freezing to fiddle with it more. It is spring here, but temperatures are at 32 (0 c) going down to 22 tonight. Can't wait till it warms up a bit.

    I will take the right wing off and see if I have #17/20 on that side. I will let you know what I see and also snap a couple of pics while I am at it.

    Thanks!

  18. #18
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Bracket #17 + #20 is shown sideways in the picture. It's perforated face sits on the rain gutter and the little bend at the top faces outwards when installed. In original cars, that bracket is quite short and is mounted on a raised section of the gutter. The repro repair sections lack the raised section, so the bracket is made much longer to give the same overall height. It's meant to act as a hook to pull the guard in towards the car at the middle of the top edge. The final picture above shows a repro bracket fitted to a repro rain gutter after installation.
    Yes, just to illustrate David's point, not the best pic but you get the idea. . .



    Pic courtesy of Citrothello

    Shawn you'll get it right, we'll keep on your case until you do

    Cheers
    Chris
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1974 DS 23 ownership begins!-rain-gutter-guard-bracket.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Hey Shawn
    If you've not done so already, download yourself copies of the repair manuals (manual 814 volumes 1 and 2) and the parts manual (manual 614?) are the ones for the later DS models.

    You can find them here:

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tv0b25gpmd5ux8e/e-HYMQrA3e

    There are other sites with manuals - all are worth a look. You might even find a pdf off a drivers handbook if you haven't worked everything out.

  20. #20
    Tadpole
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    Welcome to DS ownership. There is a great support network in the area. I have owned a DS for about 4 years.
    I'm in Mechanicsburg PA, which coincidentally is where one of the key suppliers of DS parts in the USA, Brad Nauss Automotive, is located. You will find him to be very helpful on all things DS and other vintage Citroen.

    The Carlisle Events import show is coming up May 19-21 and there is always a good Citroen turn out.

    I strongly recommend getting copies of the parts, service
    and adjustments manuals. DS can be intimidating at first to work on but not impossible for
    an amateur mechanic.
    Paul
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  21. #21
    Tadpole
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    Chris/Budge, I appreciate all the help. Went out and took off the right wing this evening and saw that it has parts #17/#20 and also #9 (the rubber liner that goes the length of the rain channel outside lip. The right side doesn't have #9 or #17/20.

    I have downloaded the manuals, but not the parts book - yet.

    Pav266, I was talking to Brad yesterday about this and thinking about driving up on Monday afternoon to show him. I will put Carlisle on my calendar and will definitely make it up there at least for one day.

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger
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    Is it just me or are those rear lights on the wrong sides and therefore upside down? The bases are sided, although the lens is the same part.

  23. #23
    Tadpole
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Is it just me or are those rear lights on the wrong sides and therefore upside down? The bases are sided, although the lens is the same part.
    No clue

    I will take a look.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    I've never figured out exactly where the bracket #16 with the rubber #1 fits onto anything, please explain!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    I've never figured out exactly where the bracket #16 with the rubber #1 fits onto anything, please explain!
    Hi Steven,
    Is it not the bracket on the bumper bar mount, again not the best pic and the rubber has not been fitted - the brown part fitted to the end of the stay.



    Or from Colin's restoration blog. . .


    Citroën DS Restoration

    Cheers
    Chris
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    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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