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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Big 6 closer to smooth running.

    1950 Big 6 closer to smooth running.

    It has been some time that I have been fiddling with the Big 6. With the help of a friend we have checked the tappets and also the compression as follows - -

    1 = 120
    2 = 115
    3= 111
    4= 111
    5=111
    6= 118

    So by these figures compression seems okay. I’ve put a new Bosch coil and new leads. Timing will probably be improved but seems pretty close.

    With all the work I have put in I have achieved nothing other than minimising what the problem might be. It runs rough as guts and I am flat out being able to drive the car 10 yards.
    I have a mechanic coming in a day or two from a local workshop who is a whizz on Carburettors. We have plenty of DS and ID carbi’s but the Big 6 carbi seems to be one of a kind.

    If it is possible I would like to purchase a Big 6 carbi as a spare. The car has run very rough for some time and after working on the different components I figure that the problem is - - THE CARBI.

    So anyway, this mechanic will come around to hear and see how it runs and we will probably then pull the carbi off. I think he will probably ask me if I have a spare so I thought I’d put it out there. Of course I would pay a fair price and wonder whether they come new from Europe ?

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    Also, I have replaced the plug leads and ends with the Marschale ones but only have three.
    Again, if anyone has these I would be interested. Over the years we have used them up when working on ID’s to get them closer to original.

    John

    PS - - The black S-21465 front photo is not my car but it is too hard for me to edit it out.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-lh-eng.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-lh-plugs.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-rh-carbi-fr.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-rh-eng-fr.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-rh-eng-rear.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-fr.jpg  

    Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-new-yr.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-56humberbig6-big15marong11.jpg  
    Last edited by gilberthenry; 13th March 2017 at 07:32 PM.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    John, I always thought that the dual downdraft Solex on Big Sixes was fairly bullet proof. Have you removed and cleaned all of the jets and passages particularly the progression holes in the choke tube. If these are blocked it is difficult to achieve smooth acceleration. The other area to check is the emulsion tube housed in the main jet tower under the air correction jets. Then if the car has sat for a long time the idle circuit passages may have muck that has set solid in them!
    Another area to investigate is points and condenser. I am amazed at how well my CX responded to a change of these components. I am also amazed that it took me so long to pick that the condenser was stuffed and that my points had burned!!! Stupid Me!
    Are you aware of the odd layout of the inlet and exhaust valve sequence in a Six head?
    ex, inlet, inlet, ex, inlet ex, ex, inlet, ex, inlet, inlet, ex.
    It is easy to get confused and set an ex valve to the inlet clearances and visa versa.
    Cheers Gerry

  3. #3
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    John,

    Are you sure all those ignition leads are going into the right holes in the Dizzy Cap. Having two swopped over will make it run pretty rough.

    Cheers, Ken
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Yep, that'll upset the apple cart too! A six engine should be silky smooth---almost turbine like in its sound!
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    Cheers Gerry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken W View Post
    John,

    Are you sure all those ignition leads are going into the right holes in the Dizzy Cap. Having two swopped over will make it run pretty rough.

    Cheers, Ken
    That is my first thought too... it's amazing how some engine will run with the firing order wrong!
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    Thankyou for all your comments. I put a new condensor in the other day. Plug sequence is correct. Valve clearances done and hopefully we got the inlet & exhaust right. I'll print these carbi suggestions off so I can show them to the mechanic when he drops by after work today. Went to the Truck & vehicle show at Clunes last Sunday which was great.

    Regards, John

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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    John,

    I remember someone here recently having trouble with his DS Injection and it turned out to be an internally shorted spark plug. Does it idle smoothly? If not, is it one cylinder that is missing consistently - try removing each spark plug lead individually and see if there is one that makes no difference, then replace that spark plug.

    If the carby is running too rich, you will smell lots of unburned fuel in the exhaust or it will be exploding in the exhaust. If it is too lean, it will just miss but there will be a lot less fuel smell.

    Cheers, Ken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken W View Post
    John,

    I remember someone here recently having trouble with his DS Injection and it turned out to be an internally shorted spark plug. Does it idle smoothly? If not, is it one cylinder that is missing consistently - try removing each spark plug lead individually and see if there is one that makes no difference, then replace that spark plug.

    If the carby is running too rich, you will smell lots of unburned fuel in the exhaust or it will be exploding in the exhaust. If it is too lean, it will just miss but there will be a lot less fuel smell.

    Cheers, Ken
    Yes the carbi is running rich. We've done all the business with plugs and leads.

    The mechanic came and he discovered 2 main faults.

    He got 20,000 volts at the coil but only 10,000 volts at the plug leads thinking that weíre losing 10,000 volts from the rotor to the central distributor shaft. To rectify this I need a new rotor.
    I have taken a close up picture of the right hand side of the SOLEX 30 PAAI 5759215 Carburrettor. At the centre of the pic is a round brass part with a hole and slots on either side. Apparently inside this is a small diaphragm which probably has a hole in it as air blows out when the motor is going which should not happen. When I put my finger on the whole the running improves a bit.
    For this I need a Carbi kit. Andrew, The mechanic said it is NOT a short kit but ďcompleteĒ.

    Michael is coming with a tin of rotors tomorrow and Somehow Iíll have to chase up this carbi kit.

    John
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-carbi-diaph.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-dist-top.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-distributor.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-rotor.jpg   Big 6 closer to smooth running.-big-6-rotor-bott.jpg  
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  9. #9
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh, you need a baseline to start from .... New plugs, leads, condensor, cap, rotor and points. Once these are changed start debugging any issues that still exist. I would expect a largish voltage drop across modern resistor leads.

    seeya
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  10. #10
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Cheers Gerry

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    Hi, I had a similar problem with my Big6. It drove me mad. I almost parked it up for good. it coincided with me changing the oil. Finally I changed the oil with Penrite HPR30. Changed the plugs for the umpteenth time. Hasn't missed a beat since.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Yes the carbi is running rich. We've done all the business with plugs and leads.

    At the centre of the pic is a round brass part with a hole and slots on either side. Apparently inside this is a small diaphragm which probably has a hole in it as air blows out when the motor is going which should not happen. When I put my finger on the whole the running improves a bit.


    John
    Air correction jet for the Bi-Starter ( Choke device ) This is a dashpot arrangement. It could be stuck. Illustration 120 of the Big 6 Manual.
    Cheers Gerry

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    This may be helpful..


  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tractionfan View Post
    Hi, I had a similar problem with my Big6. It drove me mad. I almost parked it up for good. it coincided with me changing the oil. Finally I changed the oil with Penrite HPR30. Changed the plugs for the umpteenth time. Hasn't missed a beat since.
    So what do you bump/move/touch when the oil is changed I'm thinking something like the earth wire for the dizzie. If that isn't there you can get "weird" issues due to intermittant earths if the dizzie isn't clamped *really tight* (which is hard to do when it flops around in the manual adjust mechanism) ....

    Er, now I think about it ..... The earth wire for the dizzie isn't gone is it

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  15. #15
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    Thanks for the help and Carbi diagram which I've printed off. I'm in the process of putting the cars onto Victorian rego which is a mammoth task. There will be a few QLD personal plates for sale as I need the funds for the Victorian lot, eg QLD ODS-O23, ODS-021, OID-019, ODS-019, ODS-057, '59, 64, 67, 68, 69 etc. etc. I'll have to get them all out and look into the process of being able to sell them.

    Anyway thanks for the help as I hope to be getting closer to a Big 6 that actually goes.

    John
    Last edited by gilberthenry; 16th March 2017 at 10:21 AM.

  16. #16
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Thanks for the help and Carbi diagram which I've printed off. I'm in the process of putting the cars onto Victorian rego which is a mammoth task. There will be a few QLD personal plates for sale as I need the funds for the Victorian lot, eg QLD ODS-O23, ODS-021, OID-019, ODS-019, ODS-057, '59, 64, 67, 68, 69 etc. etc. I'll have to get them all out and look into the process of being able to sell them.

    Anyway thanks for the help as I hope to be getting closer to a Big 6 that actually goes.

    John
    Club permits ... Your going to save yourself a staggering amount of money if you put the fleet onto club permits. 45days is about $75 a year for registration and 3rd party injury insurance. You can drive it anywhere, anytime your desire, so long as it's not for the purposes of making money.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    So what do you bump/move/touch when the oil is changed I'm thinking something like the earth wire for the dizzie. If that isn't there you can get "weird" issues due to intermittant earths if the dizzie isn't clamped *really tight* (which is hard to do when it flops around in the manual adjust mechanism) ....

    Er, now I think about it ..... The earth wire for the dizzie isn't gone is it

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Plug fouling due to the choice of oil (before using HPR30) is perhaps what is being alluded to?

  18. #18
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Plug fouling due to the choice of oil (before using HPR30) is perhaps what is being alluded to?
    Interesting, I wonder if Big 6's have a different design oil scraper ring. Or possibly valve seat/seal design.

    I was assuming it was the same as a traction engine by design with an extra 2 cylinders added. Let me guess ... I'm completely wrong ... again
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilberthenry View Post
    Thankyou for all your comments. I put a new condensor in the other day. Plug sequence is correct. Valve clearances done and hopefully we got the inlet & exhaust right. I'll print these carbi suggestions off so I can show them to the mechanic when he drops by after work today. Went to the Truck & vehicle show at Clunes last Sunday which was great.

    Regards, John
    Hi,from your last photo you're planning a long night;kettle,lights,alarm clock;good luck,Andy.

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    Shane, I'm just assuming plug fouling is what was being implied. Different combinations of ring condition and the chosen plugs and oil can see plugs foul up or not foul up. A recurring misfire can be a real hassle. The 6 is basically a longer version of the 4 and you would use 1.5 sets of 4 liner/piston sets on a 6 rebuild. Although, I never worked on these cars when I was in short pants, so you might discount that explanation accordingly.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Interesting, I wonder if Big 6's have a different design oil scraper ring. Or possibly valve seat/seal design.

    I was assuming it was the same as a traction engine by design with an extra 2 cylinders added. Let me guess ... I'm completely wrong ... again
    Correct, you are not wrong again!
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    Cheers Gerry

  22. #22
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Unless the engine is completely worn plug fouling is highly unlikely. Burned exhaust valves is a traction 1911 cc problem when the guides are very worn. It probably also happens to 6s. This problem is not indicated by the compression readings achieved. Have the plugs been removed and tested? Cracked ceramic insulators lead to plugs intermittently shorting out!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Interesting read. It reminds me of the last two weeks with my wife's laptop.

    FWIW, I reckon that if there is anything you can find wrong, like the blowing out of the air correction jet, I would not waste time on speculation until those known faults have been rectified. Anything will run like a bag of bolts if there are fundamental issues with the carburettor. And those little holes in the throat that control the progression from idle to main jet are just critical.

    Good luck and, as usual, thanks for an interesting thread!
    JohnW

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    Fellow Frogger! tractionfan's Avatar
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    yep indeedy.
    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Plug fouling due to the choice of oil (before using HPR30) is perhaps what is being alluded to?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Unless the engine is completely worn plug fouling is highly unlikely. Burned exhaust valves is a traction 1911 cc problem when the guides are very worn. It probably also happens to 6s. This problem is not indicated by the compression readings achieved. Have the plugs been removed and tested? Cracked ceramic insulators lead to plugs intermittently shorting out!
    Thanks again for all the suggestions. I need to find the timing - - thingi - - to get top dead centre for number 1, Should be a locating dent or so . I will look up the manual. I have changed plugs before - - I have 3 good leads but need 3 bakelite Marschale lead ends to plug onto the last 3 leads so I can't do that till I find them. They are very good.
    I am not good at mechanics and even worse with carbis so I can't proceed there till I have a carbi kit.
    I found a rotor In Michael's lot and had to grind a bit off the end. When I installed it the engine ran EXACTLY the same as with the original one so I don't think it is the rotor.
    This has been going on now for about 2 years and I think I'm a bit the wiser but not there yet. Holdens and Grey Fergis are not so bad after all. Atleast they go - - - but I shall persevere and am confident I will get there - - one day. DS Motors is a long way away so I am not so lucky as I was for the previous 20-30 years.

    Thankyou John

    PS - - My black personal plates are looking great - - bit dearer than club plates but proper rego with black plates for me - - is the way to go. I'm going to be broke which ever way I go so I might as well be broke - - happy.

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