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Thread: CX Brains Trust...

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Default CX Brains Trust...

    Either:

    - A lot of CX's were imported and sold in 1984/5, and/or .... I suspect ....

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    - the bodies were far less rust susceptible than the earlier models.

    Either way, there are a few around (including mine).

    I'm interested in the variation in the specifications of the Oz cars:

    CX25 v CX2500 GTi v IE / Pallas, etc, as there appears to be a number of labels.
    Clearly a Prestige is a specific variant.

    I naturally assume that most are essentially a 2500cc fuel injected car, but were there other
    (significant, or otherwise) differences in the models? My limited knowledge shows that in the interiors were pretty much the same.

    There certainly seems to be a variety of CX models in Europe, but most of the Oz ones seem to be more similarly related.

    Over to you ....

    post script: in particular, the autos not the manuals...
    Last edited by garyk; 17th January 2017 at 07:42 PM.
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  2. #2
    Ashtray Polisher donat's Avatar
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    Default CX Brains Trust...

    To my knowledge, we got the CX 25 IE Pallas in Automatic only and the CX 25 GTi in auto and manual. Cloth and leather with the Pallas and cloth only with the GTi.

    If memory serves, these two models were destined for the Arab market but somehow ended up here.




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    1989 BX 16 Valve

  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    yeah, the cars are all series I models. '85 will be wide track. It's really just down to the specification. The later ones are all highly spec'd. They didn't really import any budget models.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/citro%EBn-forum/90325-best-project-car-you-have-ever-seen.html
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! DanielBendigo's Avatar
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    I remember reading an article in Wheels from around 1985. Basically Citroen had x number of import licences, and the importer changed to whoever was importing Jag's at the time. Then a different importer took over Citroen, but only left them with 100 import licences. I'll have to hunt out the article.

  5. #5
    UFO
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    Our CX was a 2500ie Pallas. They were late series 1 - auto gearbox, cloth interior, AC etc. However at this time the "ventilation" system was the early temperature controlled type. Optimistically set the temp lever to where you wish the temp to be and it will "do its best" by controlling the hot, hotter, or OH MY FECKIN GOD HOW HOT CAN IT GET IN THIS CAR? flap will continue to ensure the occupants arrive nicely roasted during a summer's day drive.

    It is correct the Aussie GTi came in auto or manual.
    Last edited by UFO; 19th January 2017 at 04:27 PM.
    CXVingtCinq likes this.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

  6. #6
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    This site has a fair amount of info...

    THE HOME OF THE CITROEN CX 25 GTI IN NEW ZEALAND
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    Like UFO, mine is a CX 25 IE Auto, cloth seats and free heating 24/7.!! A truly awesome mode of transport in winter but is almost impossible to drive for about 4 months of the year out here in NW NSW. See the climate averages for Narrabri here to understand.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrabri
    JohnW likes this.
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Can't you make a difference by fitting a manual tap in the heater core lines on both feed and return lines? I have done that with my 78 model with the early heating /cooling system and it makes a big difference!
    Cheers Gerry

  9. #9
    JBN
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    The taps don't make much of a difference. The real problem is that all the air is sucked in through the small vent on the bonnet, routed through a tube in a hot engine bay into a fairly small hole with a very small aircon core. The proverbial "snowball's hope in hell". Secondary aircon in the boot blowing through vents in the rear does a good job in freezing rear passengers necks but doesn't quite make it to the front. Great cool weather cars.

    John
    UFO likes this.

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I found the same thing.... The tap makes little to no difference... modifying the heater box makes little difference. The air intake system can't move extra air (Chris over in Perth hooked a leaf blower to his intake tower, and couldn't get any extra air flow).

    Your only choice is to fit front and rear A/C.... Insulate the hell out of it to try and stop the heat soak (this does actually work) and finally, most importantly .... they NEED an athermic windscreen. This bit is a must!

    seeya
    Shane L.
    UFO likes this.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
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    They make clear, ceramic based window tint. We did it to a Pheonix, Arizona DS Pallas at great cost and it made a world of difference. Someone needs to try it on a CX.

    Do the dance. Do the Daffyduck dance using the Aussiefrogs app. Be real happy if you can.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daffyduck View Post
    They make clear, ceramic based window tint. We did it to a Pheonix, Arizona DS Pallas at great cost and it made a world of difference. Someone needs to try it on a CX.

    Do the dance. Do the Daffyduck dance using the Aussiefrogs app. Be real happy if you can.
    I've done it on my DS, no news yet, they are still in my garage waiting to be fitted

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    The taps don't make much of a difference. The real problem is that all the air is sucked in through the small vent on the bonnet, routed through a tube in a hot engine bay into a fairly small hole with a very small aircon core. The proverbial "snowball's hope in hell". Secondary aircon in the boot blowing through vents in the rear does a good job in freezing rear passengers necks but doesn't quite make it to the front. Great cool weather cars.

    John
    The evaporator core in my VT Calais is about the same size. Why do you think the CX core is small?
    BTW the Calais aircon is brilliant!
    I have found the taps to make a big difference. The last thing that you want is the evaporator core being offset by hot coolant in the heater core. On my 78 it was also imperative to ensure that the vacuum capsule operating the recirculation flap worked effectively and that the flap it self fully sealed off the intake tower to get the car to cool quickly. Of course I have not tried the car in 40+ degrees Celcius. I value my door cards too highly to risk them being fried! At about 30 give or take a few it is quite OK!
    Other important areas to address on the early car were the tower to fan unit seal ( these perish and admit air that has just blown all around the exhaust system ) and of course the top of the tower to the bonnet seal so that outside air only can get into the tower.
    Cheers Gerry

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Jerry,

    This is what I can remember......

    After Bryson Citroen Closed, Citroen said there would be no more car for Australia. The concessionaire was handed over to Maxim Motors QLD (Jim Reddiex), so they became the concessionaire for all of Australia, but it was overseas delivery, holiday leasing and spare parts only, no production cars for AU.

    Jim had a very close association with Citroen. He was awarded the French Legion of honour for his involvement with Citroen and France.

    Around 1982, Jim approached the factory to build a CX for Australia, as close as possible to Australian specification, from specification for other CX market countries that Citroen built them for. Citroen agreed in principle to investigate the proposition.

    Citroen was well aware that European markets were now adopting many design rules similar to Australia.

    In 1983, an CX2500 Pallas arrived in Sydney, that had been specially built as close as possible to comply with Australian Design rules. There had been no production cars since 1978.

    The car was fitted with Swedish specification engine anti pollution, no seat belts. The car was a grand exportation model, so was specific for hot climates. There was front factory air, but no factory rear air. It also only had normal Citroen brakes, not the diagonally split circuit system demanded by ADR, that Citroen had built for the CX2400. There may have been other specific specs, but they are lost on me at the moment.

    Jim was to get ADR compliance through a compliance concession where if a small quantity of cars were imported, that compiiance didn't have to be tested and proved for some of the design rules.

    The purpose of this CX was to get ADR compliance for the engine antipollution. Maxim Motors Sydney arranged clearance & I picked the car up from the wharf in Sydney with a trade plate. It was a very very exciting time.

    This was like coming out of a very deep depression!

    Jim came down from Brisbane, and we took the car out to JRA Liverpool.

    Jaguar, Rover Australia (ex Leyland) was still in operation, and Jim knew the management quite well, and they were the only people capable of the testing required for pollution compliance for Australian Design Rules.

    The car I think was an Auto (?), and I remember that the car had considerable difficulty meeting the regulations, and I think only passed on the last test.

    My recollection regarding the braking system was that our ADR's copied that of the US, and that fully powered system with a mineral oil must be diagonal split circuit, and an accumulator for each circuit. This care didn't comply.

    I remember asking Jim how he got around that one, and he said the person who handles that ADR had previously owned a DS safari, and had loved it, so he turned a blind eye to the problem, and it was rubber stamped.

    Despite having made doors with impact barriers for the previous CX's, Citroen wouldn't make them for the 2500, so they were to be retrofitted in Australia. Compliance didn't have to be proved, it was an comply in kind arrangement. There may have been an engineer involved there?

    The impact barriers were designed and made by Jim's brother Bob, at Maxim Motors Brisbane. They were a very smart piece of work, two telescopic tubes that could be fitted easily into the door with reinforcing plates on the outside that fitted into 2 pressings on the doors.

    The other problem was that a hand brake symbol wasn't acceptable, and so a small illuminated sign was made and fitted to the instruments, as was a sign that illuminated Hydraulic Failure.

    Bingo Australian compliance! But believe me, it wasn't that easy at the time.

    The first batch of cars were ordered, they were CX25 Pallas, both Manual & Auto. They sold very well.

    Citroen customers had been starved of big Citroens.

    Because there was limit to the amount of cars that could be ordered under these concessional provisions, a second shipment was ordered through Ian Robinson Motors, the Citroen dealer in Balgowlah. The second shipment were GTI's, the reason being that Citroen did continuous small runs of GTI's for Saudi Arabia, and it was more convenient to do the small run for Australia as GTIs

    I also convinced Jim that it was cheaper and better to order the cars with front and rear factory air.

    The Pallas models had a temperature sensor in the roof console, and fitting the Autoclima boot unit conflicted with the temp sensor. It made the poor AC even poorer. The factory rear unit, while it did take up a little more space, was fully integrated, was cheaper overall, and solved heaps of spare parts problems, which made me particularly happy.

    The continuous changes in the autoclima air conditioners fitted to previous CX's had been a spare parts nightmare.

    The CX2500 Pallas were ordered with both Velour and Leather trim. The GTI's came with Tweed and Leather trim, there were a few GTi's that came with burgundy leather, but there were no door trims to match, they were beige?

    OK, thats my recollection, as best as I can remember....

    There is a lot more to the story to follow another time! And its not very nice.

    But let me say here, every Passionate Citroen Frogger should get down on their hands & knees and thank Jim Reddiex, as with out his intervention and perseverance, we wouldn't have Citroen in Australia today

    He made it all happen!

    What happened after the CX2500's treated Jim very badly

    Best regards,

    Greg

  15. #15
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I found the same thing.... The tap makes little to no difference... modifying the heater box makes little difference. The air intake system can't move extra air (Chris over in Perth hooked a leaf blower to his intake tower, and couldn't get any extra air flow).

    Your only choice is to fit front and rear A/C.... Insulate the hell out of it to try and stop the heat soak (this does actually work) and finally, most importantly .... they NEED an athermic windscreen. This bit is a must!

    seeya
    Shane L.
    On the early car, the tap I fitted was placed on the fire wall feed hose and is the same as a Holden vacuum unit. I linked its activation to the vac line that activates the recirculation flap. Hence when the recirc. flap is closed so is the heater tap. This tap is in conjunction to the factory tap on the side of the heater box, getting that one to work effectively is another story. So when I want cold air quickly the recirc is closed and the heater totally isolated. The air temp comes down quite quickly.
    You, yourself also commented at the volume of air that this early system shifted. Why Citroen ever changed to using the Behr system puzzles me. The early system worked well enough and with the addition of a boot mounted system would fill the requirements of most owners. BTW fitting a new compressor helped enormously-------I can now actually retain gas in the system!
    Cheers Gerry

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Greg, thanks for your recollections.
    I can imagine that just getting some Citroen models into Australia for public consumption was quite a labour of love!
    Once upon a time:


    Many R4s (incl. fourgonnette), R5LS, R16TS.


    GS 1015, 1220, sedans and wagons.
    CX 2200, 2400.
    ID 1966, 1969, DS21H, DSpecial, DS23 Pallas.
    C5 2002, 2004 petrol and diesel.
    D Special 1974
    Xantia Activa 1998 (look out Gulargambone)
    GS 5 speed sedan (what a tale)
    1986 2CV6
    CX25GTi 1985 auto
    CX2500 IE Pallas 1985 auto
    DS23EFI 1975 Pallas

    And now:

    C5 2.2 HDI 2005 wagon
    DS23 1973 Pallas

  17. #17
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi Jerry,

    This is what I can remember......

    After Bryson Citroen Closed, Citroen said there would be no more car for Australia. The concessionaire was handed over to Maxim Motors QLD (Jim Reddiex), so they became the concessionaire for all of Australia, but it was overseas delivery, holiday leasing and spare parts only, no production cars for AU.

    Jim had a very close association with Citroen. He was awarded the French Legion of honour for his involvement with Citroen and France.

    Around 1982, Jim approached the factory to build a CX for Australia, as close as possible to Australian specification, from specification for other CX market countries that Citroen built them for. Citroen agreed in principle to investigate the proposition.

    Citroen was well aware that European markets were now adopting many design rules similar to Australia.

    In 1983, an CX2500 Pallas arrived in Sydney, that had been specially built as close as possible to comply with Australian Design rules. There had been no production cars since 1978.

    The car was fitted with Swedish specification engine anti pollution, no seat belts. The car was a grand exportation model, so was specific for hot climates. There was front factory air, but no factory rear air. It also only had normal Citroen brakes, not the diagonally split circuit system demanded by ADR, that Citroen had built for the CX2400. There may have been other specific specs, but they are lost on me at the moment.

    Jim was to get ADR compliance through a compliance concession where if a small quantity of cars were imported, that compiiance didn't have to be tested and proved for some of the design rules.

    The purpose of this CX was to get ADR compliance for the engine antipollution. Maxim Motors Sydney arranged clearance & I picked the car up from the wharf in Sydney with a trade plate. It was a very very exciting time.

    This was like coming out of a very deep depression!

    Jim came down from Brisbane, and we took the car out to JRA Liverpool.

    Jaguar, Rover Australia (ex Leyland) was still in operation, and Jim knew the management quite well, and they were the only people capable of the testing required for pollution compliance for Australian Design Rules.

    The car I think was an Auto (?), and I remember that the car had considerable difficulty meeting the regulations, and I think only passed on the last test.

    My recollection regarding the braking system was that our ADR's copied that of the US, and that fully powered system with a mineral oil must be diagonal split circuit, and an accumulator for each circuit. This care didn't comply.

    I remember asking Jim how he got around that one, and he said the person who handles that ADR had previously owned a DS safari, and had loved it, so he turned a blind eye to the problem, and it was rubber stamped.

    Despite having made doors with impact barriers for the previous CX's, Citroen wouldn't make them for the 2500, so they were to be retrofitted in Australia. Compliance didn't have to be proved, it was an comply in kind arrangement. There may have been an engineer involved there?

    The impact barriers were designed and made by Jim's brother Bob, at Maxim Motors Brisbane. They were a very smart piece of work, two telescopic tubes that could be fitted easily into the door with reinforcing plates on the outside that fitted into 2 pressings on the doors.

    The other problem was that a hand brake symbol wasn't acceptable, and so a small illuminated sign was made and fitted to the instruments, as was a sign that illuminated Hydraulic Failure.

    Bingo Australian compliance! But believe me, it wasn't that easy at the time.

    The first batch of cars were ordered, they were CX25 Pallas, both Manual & Auto. They sold very well.

    Citroen customers had been starved of big Citroens.

    Because there was limit to the amount of cars that could be ordered under these concessional provisions, a second shipment was ordered through Ian Robinson Motors, the Citroen dealer in Balgowlah. The second shipment were GTI's, the reason being that Citroen did continuous small runs of GTI's for Saudi Arabia, and it was more convenient to do the small run for Australia as GTIs

    I also convinced Jim that it was cheaper and better to order the cars with front and rear factory air.

    The Pallas models had a temperature sensor in the roof console, and fitting the Autoclima boot unit conflicted with the temp sensor. It made the poor AC even poorer. The factory rear unit, while it did take up a little more space, was fully integrated, was cheaper overall, and solved heaps of spare parts problems, which made me particularly happy.

    The continuous changes in the autoclima air conditioners fitted to previous CX's had been a spare parts nightmare.

    The CX2500 Pallas were ordered with both Velour and Leather trim. The GTI's came with Tweed and Leather trim, there were a few GTi's that came with burgundy leather, but there were no door trims to match, they were beige?

    OK, thats my recollection, as best as I can remember....

    There is a lot more to the story to follow another time! And its not very nice.

    But let me say here, every Passionate Citroen Frogger should get down on their hands & knees and thank Jim Reddiex, as with out his intervention and perseverance, we wouldn't have Citroen in Australia today

    He made it all happen!

    What happened after the CX2500's treated Jim very badly

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Wow ... thanks for posting this. It sure is amazing Citroen kept importing such a small range of cars in Australia. I'm amazed that someone manage to dream up that local diagonal braking system with separate brake accumulators...... and equally amazed Australian rules didn't recognise Citroen didn't need this. There is even separate pressure feeds to the rear brakes. You always have rear brakes while there is suspension height!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi Shane,

    The diagonal split circuit breaking system was an American design rule that we adopted, and was fair enough on a normal braking system, but it got difficult when it was applied to a fully powered system like Citroens.

    US design rules were always complicated, the first DS's to the USA ran on pure brake fluid to comply with their regulations, which was entirely inadequate. Citroen had the rules change so the LHS2 was admissible, but when Citroen changed to LHM, US cars continued to be supplied the old suspension fluid, until Citroen could persuade them to change the regulations and that LHM was suitable as a brake fluid

    The CX2400 CMatics that were built for Australia was a complicated car for Citroen to build because of a host of ADRs that mimicked USA regulations, and of course, Citroen had withdrawn for the American market. When Bryson closed in 1981 (?) still with unsold CX's that had arrived in 1978, Citroen said "No More Cars for Australia".

    To be fair, the CXs that arrived during Bryson's time had previously been ordered by Citco, so they really didn't have a say on what model came in. The other problem was Citroen wouldn't do small production runs for such a complicated market, so shipments of CX's were very large. Consequently there were only two shipments of CX Cmatics that came to Sydney, and possibly two to Dutton's in Melbourne.

    While it was quite clear that Bryson's couldn't sell water to goldfish, the model CX they were left with didn't please a lot of people.

    Best regards,

    Greg

    BTW, the CX 2400 was a bastard to bleed the brakes.

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