2CV Electronic ignition options
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 27
Like Tree4Likes

Thread: 2CV Electronic ignition options

  1. #1
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default 2CV Electronic ignition options

    I'd like to go with some sort of electronic ignition system for my 2CV. I've got a few options.

    One is this system:

    Electronic Ignition Module Kit K2543

    I actually put "two" of these kits together for my Trabant (one for each cylinder) because I was having issues trying to get my electronic ignition system to work. But finally got it work so I've never actually tested it.

    Advertisement


    Then there is this system I have installed on lawnmowers:

    Home Super XL Auto SXLAO XL12 Ignition Chip Replace Points & Condenser | eBay

    In theory the 2CV being a wasted spark ignition, should work but the website says:

    This module is not recommended for use on engines equipped with battery ignition or flywheels with multiple magnets.

    So I'm not sure if this module would work in my application.

    Then there is the pricey 123 system and a few others.

    I also have a Petronix system intended for a Mitsubishi fork truck that someone had retrofitted to a Marelli distributor on a Fiat 124! I could use this if it will slip over the points lobe but I need to remove 2 of the magnets and get the other two lined up correctly.

    What's your say?
    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Albany WA
    Posts
    196

    Default

    You can order one specially made for 2CV's. Just Google electronic ignition citroen 2CV and the best one available: 123/2CV.

  3. #3
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Winkbul45 View Post
    You can order one specially made for 2CV's. Just Google electronic ignition citroen 2CV and the best one available: 123/2CV.
    I don't want to sound cheap but last time I prices one of those they were more than $200. For no more than it does. I've never used one of those "points assisted" or whatever type of systems so I wasn't sure how reliable they are.
    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ongar / England
    Posts
    625

    Default

    You do sound cheap!

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    1,933

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turbofiat124 View Post
    I'd like to go with some sort of electronic ignition system for my 2CV. I've got a few options.

    One is this system:

    Electronic Ignition Module Kit K2543

    You could go with this style of kit. I made a similar one years ago and it is now on a friends old Toyota and still going strong. 3rd car now I think.

    ----
    Then there is this system I have installed on lawnmowers:

    Home Super XL Auto SXLAO XL12 Ignition Chip Replace Points & Condenser | eBay

    This style of module will not work ! It will only work on a simple magneto system as fitted to lawn mowers and weed wackers and chain saws etc. Nothing to do with the wasted spark by the way.

    Then there is the pricey 123 system and a few others.
    I also have a Petronix system intended for a Mitsubishi fork truck that someone had retrofitted to a Marelli distributor on a Fiat 124! I could use this if it will slip over the points lobe but I need to remove 2 of the magnets and get the other two lined up correctly.
    What's your say?
    I cannot comment on the others as I have no experience !
    However to comment on the comments. IMHO people with restored cars seem to think spending money is good and like to use it as a bragging point. Some others do not
    Jaahn

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Albany WA
    Posts
    196

    Default

    I don't brag about this. It's handy because you never have to change points. That's why I bought it and it can't be noticed.
    2CV drivers are not braggers unlike many other collector car owners.

  7. #7
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,330

    Default

    I have used both 123 Ignition (Netherlands) and Luminition (English). The 123 EVO is an upgraded standard 123 ignition which has an option for a vacuum advance and allows one to set the dwell at any of the standard 2CV engine settings plus a few extras. All versions of 123 completely replace the points box and are set and forget. Luminition replaces the points with an infrared beam and "cutter" to mimic the points. It provides (like 123) a much stronger spark than points. Again, a set and forget.

    I have also both the Luminition and the 123 fail. I now only use 123 in both cars.

    Both cars have aftermarket Harley coils which are resin filled and provide a much bigger spark that the original coil.

    John

  8. #8
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    I have used both 123 Ignition (Netherlands) and Luminition (English). The 123 EVO is an upgraded standard 123 ignition which has an option for a vacuum advance and allows one to set the dwell at any of the standard 2CV engine settings plus a few extras. All versions of 123 completely replace the points box and are set and forget. Luminition replaces the points with an infrared beam and "cutter" to mimic the points. It provides (like 123) a much stronger spark than points. Again, a set and forget.

    I have also both the Luminition and the 123 fail. I now only use 123 in both cars.

    Both cars have aftermarket Harley coils which are resin filled and provide a much bigger spark that the original coil.

    John
    I have heard of Harley Davidson coils being used on 2CVs. This car is particularly hard to start in the summer ~35C like all of my carburated cars. Some have said using this coil would help but I think it's the fact older cars simply hates modern blended fuels because they have a lower boiling point. So after 15 minutes all the fuel boils/evaporates out of the fuel boil so excessive cranking is required to refill the fuel bowel. Just my theory.

    As far as electronic ignitions are concerned. One of the more common systems I've used in the past on a couple of Fords is the Petronix system which usually sells for anywhere from US$75 to US$100 and seem to be reliable.

    Petronix makes a system for the Citroen but only for cars with Marchal and Ducellier distributors. I've yet to find one for the 2CV. I think the Luminition system is about the same design. Which uses a plastic ring with magnets that slides over the points lobe then a control module which fits in place of the points.

    I thought perhaps I could modify a Petronix from a Harley Davidson motorcycle or some other motorbike with a 2 cylinder wasted spark ignition system like the 2CV by filing the inside of the ring out if necessary.

    I have a wife and family to support but enjoy my collector cars so I tend to figure out ways to keep them running without breaking the bank.

    When I turbocharged my Fiat Spider and Yugo, I went round and round with these guys on what the best way to get the job done. Most people thought my ideas were too "simple" and I needed to dump tons of money into these cars. While they were spending their money on programmable fuel injection and MSD ignition systems, I was coming up with my own techniques. One guy told me it was impossibly to blow through a Weber carburetor and I did it just to prove him wrong!

    Keep in mine these cars only run .5 BAR and the engines are stock (8:1 C/R) so they didn't need much modifications.

    I used allot of used parts like the turbos from junkyard Swedish cars. I ended up having to replace the cartridge on my Yugo and the bearings in my T3.

    One of my "work arounds" when it came to the ignition retard system was to use a 5 pin GM HEI control module on my Fiat Spider and Yugo. They will work with just about any distributor which uses a magnetic trigger.

    These have a 5th pin and when grounded backs the timing off 5 degrees which is all I need at .5 BAR of boost. These modules were used on high compression GM V8 engines from the late 70s until the early 80s to make them easier to start when cranking but also works well as a cheap and effective boost retard system. But they are either on or off. They don't decrease the advance as boost rises and your limited to 5 degrees unless you mess with the static timing on the distributor.

    Here is the one I used in place of the Bosch control module on my Yugo. Notice the used fuel pressure regulator from a carbed Maserati Bi-turbo a friend gave me. I have about $50 in my ignition setup. Alternatively an MSD or Crane that does basically the same thing would have cost me $800.




    On my Spider, I used various "boost" switches to trick the ECU into doing different things when the turbo kicks in (see lower left hand corner) to get around using a programmable fuel injection system. I used a rising rate fuel pressure regulator instead of larger injectors. One of the boost switches kills the signal between the O2 sensor and ECU so the ECU doesn't lean the mixture out when the fuel pressure increases. The other one goes to the 5 pin GM HEI module and the other one stops the A/C compressor under boost for more power. And I used a mechanical boost controller (the blue thing).

    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  9. #9
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Forgot to ask. I was watching a video on Youtube where the French 2CV club was installing one of their systems.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBvt1SbEFes

    Sometime in the near future I'm going to pull the fan to have a look to see if that Petronix system from the lift truck might fit and if not at least install the new set of points I bought and possibly wire it up to the points assisted electronic ignition system I soldered together that intended to go on my Trabant.

    Is this the procedure for setting the points gap:

    Once the fan is removed, insert a 6mm rod through the hole in the bell housing and rotate the engine over slowly until the rod goes through a hole in the flywheel which locks it in place? That's TDC.

    Then loosen the bolts/screws on the points and adjust the gap to .4mm (.016 in). Is that how it's done?

    In the past when setting points on other cars, I've just rotated the engine over until the points are open on the high side of the lobe then set the points gap but I'm not sure how accurate that method is. I've never used a dwell meter to check the points.

    The Trabant uses two sets of points and two coils (one for each cylinder). Before getting my electronic ignition system functioning, I could manipulate the timing by adjusting the points gap while the engine was running! But then I ended up with some weird points gap which may have caused them to burn out quicker.
    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ongar / England
    Posts
    625

    Default

    My 2CV was a sod to start. I often used the starting handle. One time I kept swinging the damn thing over until the front bumper fell off! That was why I tried all sorts of electronic gizmos. In the end I went back to original and fitted the biggest battery I could fit. After that it had no say in the matter and would always start.

    Then my 1st wife wrote it off, the replacement Dyane caught fire on the motorway (1st wife driving at the time), no wonder I divorced her!
    COL likes this.

  11. #11
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    I don't think mine is a electrical or ignition issue, I think it's these oxygenated lower emission fuels that has a lower boiling point. I've tried pure gasoline versus E10, high octane versus lower octane and it makes no difference.

    My 2CV is particularly hard to start. The day I got it home, 15 minutes later it wouldn't start. I resorted to a can of ether.

    Then the day I registered it, I was out driving around and almost got stranded in a parking lot. Eventually the car started after it sat for about 30 minutes.

    The hand crank only works if the engine is stone cold.

    I finally figured out a technique for summertime starts which seems to do the trick.

    Turn the starter motor over for at least 10 to 15 seconds. No less than 10 seconds, but no more than 15 seconds for fear of damaging the starter motor. Then immediately press the accelerator to the floor continuing to crank. When the engine decides it wants to start, let off the key but continue to hold the accelerator to the floor until the engine starts running smooth.

    The Trabant has a gravity feed fuel system. I did away with that stupid petcock valve that leaks and installed a fuel solenoid shut off valve connected to one of the coils. I turn the ignition on for about 10 seconds before hitting the starter to let the fuel bowel refill. If the engine acts like it wants to start, I floor the accelerator.

    My Yugo has an electric fuel pump but it's no exception to the summertime hard starts.

    I mounted an AC blower motor to blow outside air directly at the carburator like Fiat did on 128s and X 1/9s. I mounted the lowest rated fan switch I could find (180F) in the intake manifold where the EGR valve was. That way as the heat rises up through the intake manifold, it kicks the fan on and off. I've actually heard this fan cycle on and off every 2 to 3 minutes for 30 minutes after shutting the engine off. This seems to help the car start easier in the summer.







    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  12. #12
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Here is a good price on a Harley Davidson conversion kit but don't know how much work it would take it to make it fit.

    Ultima Dual Fire Electronic Ignition requires advance unit Shovelhead Harley | eBay
    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    168

    Default

    My two cents worth.
    Try starting your 2CV when hot with the throttle open ( but don't pump in fuel ) - just hold it open to the floor. Second - you most probably need a new coil. Think when hot - no start - new coil. regards Hawk
    Peter O likes this.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    sorrento
    Posts
    93

    Default

    2cv hard to start hot, starts easy cold then 99.9% trouble is the coil, as others have mentioned.
    When hot just blip the starter don't touch accelerator if that does not work slowly push accelerator to floor and then try again ,more cranking required. I have had a number of new Valeo coils which don't last to long. Some years ago someone told me the old ducellier coils were much better and I acquired one of those from a trash and treasure market in France a few years ago ( Marked 'bonne €15') it has been in the car ever since and I have no longer starting issues. I have also heard of and seen the Harley Coil solution which also apparently works well.By the way our car has always had Luminition.
    1950 Light 15 - Blanche 'Claude'
    1949 Light 15 - Noir 'Emilie'
    1982 2CV Special - Lagune Bleu 'Daffie'
    2007 C4 HDI EGS - Rouge Lucifer
    1968 Velo Solex 3800 - Noir

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    171

    Default

    My money is on the coil too. Had similar symptoms, similar weather and new coil solved it.

    Saw a bush engineered solution once, a second "second hand" coil mounted alongside the original.
    The owner had an old second hand spare and being thrifty used it. If there was no start when too hot, leads were swapped over and away you go.
    As I recall in our summer it was good for an hour or two, perfect time for a comfort stop leg stretch and swap of leads. Almost an automatic anti fatigue feature.
    Fine if just doing short trips, but if doing longer travel in our warmer weather (40C+) then perhaps best to invest in a new coil!
    jaahn likes this.
    Peter
    1950 11BL
    1970 AZUA "La Poste" van
    1986 2CV Dolly (red and white)
    2004 C5 HDi silver 2.0L

  16. #16
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,330

    Default

    The problem with the original 2CV coils is that they are oil cooled. On a hot day, stuck in traffic with no airflow, the hot oil will cool nothing. The after market Harley coils are modern resin coils. They don't heat up to the same extent. They have a very powerful spark. They also have excellent leads to the spark plugs that hold their position well and don't come near any metal.

    I always use the best petrol available. In Australia that is 98 Octane. I am chasing every ounce of power as you can't always drive the 2CV downhill with a following gale.

    John
    lozenge likes this.

  17. #17
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    I'll take your advice guys and try a new coil. But I would have expected a bad coil to cause the engine to start cutting out or stall eventually. The car runs fine otherwise.

    Years ago my father had this issue with his lawnmower. It has a B&S 15 hp engine. He would make about 3 revolutions around the front yard (< 5 minutes) and the mower would just quit about in the same spot every time. Then after 30 minutes it would start and run for another 5 minutes then die.

    I immediately suspected the coil. So I changed it out and it ran fine ever since. Well until the gearbox locked up!
    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  18. #18
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,330

    Default

    Change the coil, check the valve clearance and replace the spark plugs. Remember, the spark plugs work twice as much on a 2CV as they both fire on each cycle. Then check the timing. I use a 5.5mm drill bit which I find is easier to insert than a 6mm one. Repaint the timing marks.

    On each 5,000km service, I change the oil filter and oil, the spark plugs and check the valve timing. I find the large size disposable nappies (diapers) are excellent to put under the oil filter when removing it and also under the tappet covers when removing them. Saves a lot of oil messing up the engine bay. Changing the spark plugs every 5000km means you never have to worry about the gap. I use NGK BS6H and they are always preset to the exact gap. Replacing two is cheap and gives the best starting and running. Only in cold weather do I need to use choke to start the car. It should always start first go if everything is OK.

    The kingpins should be greased every 1000kms.

    This is my Harley coil:

    2CV Electronic ignition options-060.jpg


    John
    Last edited by JBN; 18th January 2017 at 11:09 PM.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Albany WA
    Posts
    196

    Default

    Where can you get the Harley coil from?

  20. #20
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,330

    Default

    I get mine from ECAS in the UK. Franzose in Germany seem to have a similar one.

    John

  21. #21
    Member turbofiat124's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Hawkins County, TN, USA
    Posts
    69

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    Change the coil, check the valve clearance and replace the spark plugs. Remember, the spark plugs work twice as much on a 2CV as they both fire on each cycle. Then check the timing. I use a 5.5mm drill bit which I find is easier to insert than a 6mm one. Repaint the timing marks.

    On each 5,000km service, I change the oil filter and oil, the spark plugs and check the valve timing. I find the large size disposable nappies (diapers) are excellent to put under the oil filter when removing it and also under the tappet covers when removing them. Saves a lot of oil messing up the engine bay. Changing the spark plugs every 5000km means you never have to worry about the gap. I use NGK BS6H and they are always preset to the exact gap. Replacing two is cheap and gives the best starting and running. Only in cold weather do I need to use choke to start the car. It should always start first go if everything is OK.

    The kingpins should be greased every 1000kms.

    This is my Harley coil:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	060.jpg 
Views:	216 
Size:	89.9 KB 
ID:	93043


    John
    Sorry, I've been MIA for awhile. So this weekend I decided to give my 2CV a tuneup and install that Harley Davidson ignition coil I've had some awhile. I used some of those conduit clamps to mount it to the light bar. I had to cut down and crimp some universal 8 mm coil wires since they exit from the back instead of the front. And some +/- extension wires. And new spark plugs. Hood/bonnet closes without hitting the coil.

    I was prepared to install a new set of points/condenser and possibly how to retrofit a Petronix Ignitor kit from a fork truck I had laying around.

    When I discovered three wires (red/yellow/black) running down the side of the cover. HMMM, that's interesting. After I pulled the fan and rubber cover off I was surprised to learn someone had beaten me to the punch and installed a 123ignition system on my car! Whoever installed this system must have tapped into the + wire going to the coil and was hidden underneath that plastic loom.

    It was 24C yesterday so it was not hot enough to test to see if this coil fixes the hot starting problem. I did test start the car after 5 minutes and it fired right up. Normally the hot starting problem doesn't crop up until around 29C and a real pain at 35C. Normally trying to start any carburated engine after it sits for 15 minutes in hot weather is a pain to start. But especially my 2CV.

    It's officially fall here in the northern hemisphere but the seasons overall each over here in the Southeastern US so just based on the temperature our Spring starts in late February/Early March, Summer starts the late April/first week of May and fall arrives around the first week of November. Winter is usually 6 weeks. So we get 6 months of summer, 5 months of rain and maybe a month of snow.


    2CV Electronic ignition options-img_20171001_144737637.jpg2CV Electronic ignition options-img_20171001_150611423_hdr.jpg2CV Electronic ignition options-img_20171001_150617748_hdr.jpg2CV Electronic ignition options-img_20171001_150625401_hdr.jpg
    1987 2CV faux Charleston edition
    Mount Carmel, TN. (Outside Kingsport) USA

    http://s222.photobucket.com/user/tur...?sort=2&page=0

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    North Yorkshire
    Posts
    55

    Default

    Or maybe just take heed of the most common cure for problems with 'hot starting' on an A series Citroen?
    .
    Check and adjust the valve clearances, using 0.25mm/10 thou for the exhaust valves and 0.2mm/8 thou for the inlets.

  23. #23
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    8,853

    Default

    Can you get fuel pumps for the 2CV with a hand priming lever? They are available for the rear-engined Renaults and are really good for intermittent use and occasionally to overcome hot starting problems.

    Again, different carburettor, but the Solexes used on the R8/R10 series "percolate" fuel through the accelerator pump tube when you turn them off hot. Then you have a small pool of petrol in the inlet manifold, the mixture is too rich and they won't start. Cracking the throttle open a wee bit, maybe 10%, lets air in, leans the mixture and they fire.

    Maybe quite irrelevant to your issue. Hopefully not.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Peugeot 306 XT 1995 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  24. #24
    JBN
    JBN is offline
    1000+ Posts JBN's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    7,330

    Default

    I suggest you wait and see how the 2CV goes and only bother fixing problems if/when they arise. Looks like you have already ended up with a good combination of coil and ignition.

    John

  25. #25
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Hi John,

    Yes, hand primed pumps exist. I have one on my later 425 but not on my earlier one. Not sure about 602.

    2CV Electronic ignition options-pump.jpg

    Cheers,

    Daniel

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •