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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    Default Update on C5 non starter

    Well some success today, charged battery in situ. Attempted multiple starts. Checked fuel pump no fuel pumping to engine bay. Checked the known fuse box connecter pin 11 pink wire problem. Aha only 7 volts pin not mating with any tension. Fixed pin. Attempted start cannot hear in tank pump again pins not mating properly and dirty. Contact cleaner and tensioned the pins. Prime the fuel pump by multiple key turns to Accessories only and one full turn and we have lift off.run for 20 mins to check all the lights door locks windows etc. Passages Window stuck down from drivers control works okay from passanger side?
    Okay so let's see if we can drive it.......nope no gears work forward or reverse manual or auto. Okay Ken where is that Lexia hopefully have it dropped off tomorrow.

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    Any clues guys can this be an electrica,l ECU or physical problem.?
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    I would check auto trans fluid level first...

    Alec

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    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    Welcome to the world of C5 transmissions!
    Check some older threads here for similar problems
    '04 Megane
    Gone but not forgotten
    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

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    CitroŽn, what else? smiffy1071's Avatar
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    Did they not do manual transmission over there? Autos are not common here in England at all..,

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    I think the 'sport automatic' was the preferred option. The only option missing on the one I bought was no sunroof. So hence hopefully able to get this one back on the road. Will be checking linkages and fluids over the weekend.

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    Unfortunately Smiffy, newish manuals have become uncommon here. They are mostly reserved for cars with sporty pretensions, like the Dsport and Peugeot equivalents. Most new drivers in NSW now get endorsed provisional licences (they were tested in autos) and are not permitted to drive a manual without an unrestricted licence.

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    Have spoke to on of the Brisbane Citroen service crowd, and they suggest its a stripped driveshaft, as I have no error on the dash/console i.e flashing sport/snow indicators and wont move forward in any gear or reverse. Said they had see it a couple of times before....this is sounding hopeful. Will check for error codes firs thanks to Ken for the loaner of Lexia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smiffy1071 View Post
    Did they not do manual transmission over there? Autos are not common here in England at all..,
    Manual C5s only came out in series 1 and only 4cyl petrol. S2 and S3 (X7) have all been automatic. In S3 we only got diesel engine - four or six cylinder and of course the six is gone now.

    Around 90% of the cars sold in Aus now are automatic. Considering we are one of the most urbanised countries on the planet of course a lot of our cars spend time sitting in traffic. Modern autos (and no AL4 is not modern!) work just as well if not better than manuals for our driving.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Further to Seasink's comments which are confirmed (#6), very few new Aussie drivers go for a licence that allows them to drive a manual GB vehicle and hence very few if any (apart from special sports orientated) vehicles are available in anything but an automatic GB. Aussies don't like changing gears manually so automatics galore over here in Australia.

    Hence, regretfully, Aussie drivers are becoming like the ones we came accross in Italy and Greece not too long ago - lousy!

    If you insisted on a manual C5, you have to order it from new and wait for it to arrive.



    Quote Originally Posted by smiffy1071 View Post
    Did they not do manual transmission over there? Autos are not common here in England at all..,

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    Update on C5 non starter-20160814_171641.jpg

    spent today clearing fault codes from all areas, pre-post heating relay had me for a while but managed to clear, had steering wheel angle sensor come up a few time but found it was calibrated in the BSI ECU. The fuel injection was not recognized but forced Lexia to use RHZ and this seemed to allow me to clear faults and test devices. but when it cam to the AL4 auto I could test gear selection and actuators all good but still no movement forward or backwards.error code 02 slipping clutch.

    Ran out of car time as we were heading to a BBQ, but had the front wheels up in the air and could not get them spinning in any gear not even 3rd which I thought may have been the limp home mode, sounding like clutches may be burnt out or stripped splines on the drive shafts.
    Just a thought there is a guy near me with a working AL4 from an 02 C5 HDi but has 250k on it and mine from the receipts was replaced with a new box in 08 so had about 120k on it. just looking at worst case at this stage until I can get underneath and check oil levels, smells and debris behind the heat exchanger.

    Might get time on Wed or Thursday to investigate further

    Update on C5 non starter-20160814_161031-medium-.jpg
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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Dimi, you are making good progress. I'm glad the Lexia is working and will talk to the gearbox ECU.

    I think stripped splines on the driveshafts would be a long shot. You could check that by putting it up on stands, handbrake off and try to rotate a wheel. The other wheel will probably just rotate backwards through the diff action. If the park setting on the gearbox is working, you could put some force on to the wheels and see if you can get the splines to slip.

    How is the gearbox oil pressure regulation system working? From the Lexia display, it seems the gearbox doesn't know where the selector is or what gear is selected. Maybe the selector needs adjustment or is faulty ???

    Cheers, Ken

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    Correcting myself with wheels raised spinning one by hand the opposite wheel rotates the other way as it should so splines will be okay. Looks like clutch plates. Now to get some guidance on replacing without removing the box from the car. And finding a supply locally. Will call the official repairer in VIC and then maybe order from China.

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    previous message that was deleted, reposted

    Ken, yes its been an interesting experience, tracked down the previous owner in Gayndah who invited me for a cup of tea and pick up the removable towball (too far for me to drive for a cup of tea!) he said that the gearbox was staring to have issues but still working but the car has been sitting at the Gympie dealer for 6 months or so with the battery disconnected.

    Check rebuild master sets out of China if I need to go down that track to replace clutch plates,

    Lexia shown oil pressure and all gears selected changing, no other error code and no flashing Sport/Snow.

    Going through the options atm.

    Thanks for the use of Lexia its been a great learing experience test all the actuators, the hydraulics was a fun part for the kids to see the car raise all the way up!!

    Does anyone know if a DPO (from a Renault) can go in and the TCM be compatible, cant find anything online, DPO's also have diferent versions so not sure which will be similar.

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    Yep, thats the manual I need, I should be able to remove the clutch primary shaft and take to the experts with the correct tools, as seems a bit of a mission. Anyone attempted this before

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimistyle View Post
    Yep, thats the manual I need, I should be able to remove the clutch primary shaft and take to the experts with the correct tools, as seems a bit of a mission. Anyone attempted this before
    Hi
    Yes it has been done by people, or at least one from here.Search the forum for it. Perhaps that person is not so far away from you either !
    Jaahn

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    There could be quite a few things wrong with this gearbox, but someone would have to have really abused it to have worn the friction plates down so much that it will not even turn the wheels. You tend to find the car will move off, slip and then go to 3rd gear when there is a pressure regulation issue or worn out friction plates. The usual response to the pressure reg fault is to change the line pressure modulation electrovalve, but that's often pointless if it has been cooked.

    If nothing happens at all, then before spending any money, you'd want to check all the wiring is hooked up properly, that it actually has oil in it and that it isn't burnt and that the gearbox multi-function switch, aka position switch, moves and works. The gears are selected by solenoids, so it may be staying in neutral for some reason or it has no line pressure. As far as I'm aware there are also pressure tapping points on the case should you want to get into that.

    You can swap the gearbox ECU as it is not VIN-coded, but it needs to have been coded with software that is compatible with the engine software. Being a later car, 2004, you will not encounter the old type white body pressure reg and TC lockup electrovalves as the change to the later black body type was well before your car was built. That eliminates one possible software problem if you want to change the two electrovalves. As Jaahn noted, there is another (long-winded) thread on AL4 troubles, culminating in the end of the box being taken apart in-situ to replace the friction plates in the clutches you can get at. Things like a broken band, ruined pump, busted converter or blocked pickup will be gearbox out jobs.

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    Hi dimistyle
    Here is the veerry long thread about another AL4 with a "happy ending"
    03 Citroen C5 2.0 HDI auto HELP
    Read it all and see what you think about how it fits your AL4.

    What worrys me is the lack of codes now. However perhaps you have not actually tried to drive it to get the full codes show up ?? If there are no codes then it points to a mechanical fault of some sort. Or the communication is not there due to a connector. David suggested some good things to look at. But with the lexia you should be able to determine something about lack of connection.

    I always say do not start to fix it until you know what is wrong with it. In the case of an auto that means do not remove it either until it is diagnosed ! If you pull it out and strip it and find nothing serious then you have to put it back in to diagnose it again.

    Have you checked the oil level in the correct way with the engine running ?? First step ! There are quite a few possible faults that are not likely and a few that have been shown to be most likely so check these first. Search on AF. Jumping to conclusions will result in a long heart breaking story so use logic and this forum.
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 17th August 2016 at 10:18 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    This looks wrong, 2 psi at idle? but as an auto repairer said if the wheels spin when in park that's a mechanical issue, but double checking everything at this stage



    Update on C5 non starter-c5-oil-pressure.jpg

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    according to this link I may have solenoid problem or the internal oil pump is gone. Is there anyway to attach a pressure gauge to the auto box to confirm?

    http://www.autoequipment.com.au/imag...Support/21.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimistyle View Post
    according to this link I may have solenoid problem or the internal oil pump is gone. Is there anyway to attach a pressure gauge to the auto box to confirm?

    http://www.autoequipment.com.au/imag...Support/21.pdf
    Hi
    Yes the box has pressure tapping(s). However that picture of the Lexia readings says that the selected pressure is 2.7 bar and the pressure is 0.25 bar. There is the problem IMHO. A solenoid problem OR NOT ENOUGH OIL. Have you checked it !!!
    Be carefull of Google diagnosing every possible problem. There are common ones to check first. I do believe you found a few unlikely ones for the failure to start but it proved to be the usual suspects.
    Jaahn
    PS i sent a PM to you.
    Last edited by jaahn; 17th August 2016 at 03:24 PM.

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    Oil level okay but colour and smells burnt is not a good sign. Thanks to Lockwood door knob hardware for providing an 8mm square dive to remove the drain plug made of soft metal but it worked. So the drain and refill and drain and refill hopefully gets this car moving again to find the real issues.
    Anyone have spare solenoid or back to ebay, if I need to follow this path.


    .Update on C5 non starter-gerabox-oil.jpg
    Last edited by dimistyle; 17th August 2016 at 05:19 PM.

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    .25 bar is about 4psi. Your pressure appears to be about 10% of what Lexia says is required. If wheels will spin in the same direction in park there is a problem. Opposite directions is OK.

    Ken

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    That oil doesn't look too bad. It's often very dark on a working gearbox that might not have had a change for far too long. If the friction plates were totally destroyed, you'd expect it to be black and smell very strongly burnt and rather like a burnt clutch. It may smell like normal used oil, but I would guess the oil alone is not screaming 'disaster'. New electrovalves are no longer expensive, but you may get some response from removing and cleaning them. Even try swapping then around if you don't want to spend anything. Have you checked the cooler for debris?

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    Fellow Frogger! dimistyle's Avatar
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    One of the V8 petrol-head neighbours (not the one who want to tow it away) just looked at the oil/smelt it and said without knowing anything about the car, you have 2 stuffed solenoids, replace them and it will be back on the road. If its anything like a Commodore they are $60 each....I gave him a run down on the symptoms and he said OK you have 3 faulty solenoids. He races performance V8s for a living and knows how to reprogram the shifting times etc of the solenoids. Doesn't know Euro cars though.

    Dave you are on the money, I will check all the info on the removal process and decide how to progress to the next step.

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