DS voltage regulator wiring
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  1. #1
    skp
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    Default DS voltage regulator wiring

    Can someone show me a circuit diagram for a change-over from the old 4 wire regulator, to the new 2 or 3 pin units. Where does each wire from the old layout go to?

    skp

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  2. #2
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    What regulator are you changing over to? The four wires on the factory reg are:
    1) Red- to the charge lamp
    2) Yellow- to alternator field
    3) White- to alternator stator.
    4) Purple- from ignition switch
    Numbers 1,2, and 3 go nowhere else. No branches. Number 4 is branched off of circuit 9, which is ignition feed for several circuits.

    In the factory setup, the light has nothing to do with controlling the regulator. This is different from most modern regulators, where the light does control the regulator, providing ignition feed.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 29th July 2016 at 01:51 PM. Reason: I meant stator, not rotor at#3. The field is the rotor.
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    If by "two lead" you mean one wire in addition to the fat wire that goes to the battery positive post, then it is pretty simple. Connect the battery post to the fat terminal on the alternator and the wire that formerly went to the "I" terminal of the regulator to the remaining contact on the alternator. (Insulate the unused wires so you don't have a short later on.) As HRE alluded, once you do this modification, the alternator relies on the trickle current from the charge light in the dash to switch on the internal regulator, so you need to get in the habit of watching for the light when you turn the key on. If the bulb burns out the alternator will not charge the battery. If there are additional wires in the alternator you plan to use (e.g. if you are using a Delco CS series alternator) the important thing is to look at the wiring diagram for the alternator to figure out which wires are used and which are left disconnected.
    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    John, I think he wants to keep the original alternator. This would be 1000% easier with an SI or a CS alternator, but it has been pointed out to me that those are not readily available in Australia. Even the Ford reg you use in your brilliant mod is not easy to buy.

    In looking at the diagram for the alternator, you need to hook up both the field and the stator, in addition to the battery out. Without the stator, you get nothing. That was why I was asking about what regulator he was buying. I know the Bosch RE55 has been done, but has no charge lamp facility here. SKP would be a lot better off fitting a standard Bosch alt- hookup as easy as any GM 2-wire- but the question is will he do that?
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    I know the loss of the earth connection when replacing the reg was covered a couple of years back.
    You could also look at this older thread:
    using a modern voltage regulator in the DS
    In particular post#36 gives robmac's circuit diagram for an adjustable warning light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    John, I think he wants to keep the original alternator.
    Ahh. I thought by "unit" he meant a 2 or 3 wire alternator, you interpreted it to mean a 2 or 3 wire voltage regulator? That will be a bit of a trick, since the Citroen alternator requires a full 4 wire regulator if you want to have a charge indicator.

    The Ford voltage regulator costs anywhere from $4 to $20 at Rockauto. 1982 FORD ESCORT 1.6L 98cid L4 Voltage Regulator | RockAuto

    I wonder what the postage to Australia would be?

    Alternatively, if one of the local clubs wants to lay in an inventory, I can certainly mail a USPS flat rate box to Oz. I regularly send starters there, so I know the cost is about US$70. If I put 10 regulators in a box it would amortize out to about $7 each for shipping and thus certainly under $30 each delivered (I know from experience that if you try to order more than 1 of the $4 close outs from Rockauto they get shipped from different locations so you end up paying $20 each anyway).
    Last edited by citroenthusiast; 30th July 2016 at 04:11 AM.
    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citroenthusiast View Post
    Ahh. I thought by "unit" he meant a 2 or 3 wire alternator, you interpreted it to mean a 2 or 3 wire voltage regulator? That will be a bit of a trick, since the Citroen alternator requires a full 4 wire regulator if you want to have a charge indicator.
    That's where your mod works so well. Especially now, because the newest of the Ford regs are so very small. I opened one up ('78 Mustang II V6) and surprised it was about 1/2 the size of the original.

    Can you post your original article?
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Sorry, SKP. We seem to be having a bit of an insider chat on your thread. Tell us what you're after. What regulators were you looking at?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Can you post your original article?
    Here is is, from 30 years ago (gosh can I be that old?) I hope they are legible - I had to convert the pdf to a jpeg to upload it.. Some years later, I came to understand that my remarks about disabling the starter interlock are applicable only to BVH cars that were originally equipped with an alternator (e.g. around the same time that the 3rd dash was introduced).

    DS voltage regulator wiring-voltage-regulator-article_page_1.jpgDS voltage regulator wiring-voltage-regulator-article_page_2.jpg
    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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    It's legible, but hard to make out some details. You could upload the pdf as a zip file as it should have a higher size limit. Or try changing the extension to an allowed type and then the downloader can save it as a pdf.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    It's legible, but hard to make out some details. You could upload the pdf as a zip file as it should have a higher size limit. Or try changing the extension to an allowed type and then the downloader can save it as a pdf.
    This appears to be based on John's layout but goes a little further. . .
    http://citroen.cappyfabrics.com/Regulator.pdf

    Cheers
    Chris
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    skp
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    Sorry for the delay in replying - left my laptop at home!
    I'm sorting out a car that has been assembled from some disparate parts that don't always match up...
    I have a Ducellier 7530B alternator, but the regulator has gone walk-about... To my surprise, a replacement doesn't appear to be obviously available - apart from expensive exchange rebuilds.
    I want to retain the dash charge light operation, so the Bosch RE55 ilk is not an option.
    Where do I go from here... Is there nothing in the form of a "plug and play" regulator?

    skp

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skp View Post
    Sorry for the delay in replying - left my laptop at home!
    I'm sorting out a car that has been assembled from some disparate parts that don't always match up...
    I have a Ducellier 7530B alternator, but the regulator has gone walk-about... To my surprise, a replacement doesn't appear to be obviously available - apart from expensive exchange rebuilds.
    I want to retain the dash charge light operation, so the Bosch RE55 ilk is not an option.
    Where do I go from here... Is there nothing in the form of a "plug and play" regulator?

    skp
    OK. Now that we all know what you're working with, it'll be easier to help. Your post led me to believe you have the factory alternator. Now, I don't think that's the case for you. I'll go look and see what I can find in your direction, but in the meantime seriously consider a Nippondenso or Bosch replacement. Cheap, commonly available and easy to rebuild.
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Alright. I was mistaken. The 7530A IS the factory alternator. Therefore, no plug-and-play options. That one requires Ducellier/similar regulator. You might be able to get away with a Paris Rhone regulator- same hookup, similar in operation. Just ensure it's charging properly.

    I've seen the replacement regs on eBay, but they are pricy. Try Sylvain123_0, he has a large mass of D parts. Try all the usual sources. If that all comes a cropper, you can either use John's mod (but you will have no charge lamp because there is no facility for it), or try a different alternator.

    I should mention/clarify that if you use John's regulator, it's doable either with or without the original case. You need the original case however because the control relay for the warning lamp is there. OTOH, if you feel like fooling around a little, I think you could use an external relay to the Ford reg.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 30th July 2016 at 03:54 PM.
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    Fellow Frogger! citroenthusiast's Avatar
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    Actually, the charge lamp does work with my modification. The only thing that may not work is the starter interlock if it is a post -70 BVH. In that case you have to remove the instrument panel and ground the starter wand switch directly.
    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citroenthusiast View Post
    Actually, the charge lamp does work with my modification. The only thing that may not work is the starter interlock if it is a post -70 BVH. In that case you have to remove the instrument panel and ground the starter wand switch directly.
    OK- I've been corrected. I thought it was you needed the factory pieces in the can for that. I need to pay attention.
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    That is the beauty of the Ford regulator, it is a plug and play solution, you simply connect the Ford regulator in place of the Citroen regulator as follows:

    Citroen Terminal Ford Terminal
    L I
    BAT A
    R S
    EXC F

    That is all you have to do on everything except post -70 BVH. For the post -70 BVH you have one additional step, which is to remove the instrument panel and ground the starter wand switch directly. Mark Bardenwerper went one step further in the link that was provided above http://citroen.cappyfabrics.com/Regulator.pdf to preserve the BVH interlock by mounting the guts of a Ford regulator inside the Ducellier housing and leaving the BVH interlock relay in place.
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    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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    If it's 'plug and play' you're after, Darrin at Citroenclassics here in the UK sells new repro regulators for £72.00 including VAT

    Voltage regulator for alternator

    These are copies of the regulators originally fitted to the DS and suitable for Ds that still have the original alternator (presumably rather than a replacement modern equivalent).

    Budge

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    skp
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    This is good... The car is a manual, so no starter lockout required.
    The Ford unit sounds good. I'm sure I can get one locally, or the new UK units if no joy here...
    I replaced my own DS23 efi alternator with a more compact Bosch alternator with inbuilt reg. MANY years ago... so long ago, I have no idea what I did.
    I've just got my Traction 15/6 back on the road. Re-wiring was SO much easier than the muddle this DS was in !!

    Thanks to all,

    skp

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    skp
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    Actually... getting one locally seems to be absurdly difficult. I've ordered one from U.S. !!
    skp

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    if you are looking for an original regulator I bought a new old stock one ( with the 4 pins) from some mob in Belgium. If keen I can rummage through receipts to give you their details, cost about $150 with postage from memory.

    DOOP see you have just ordered one, there was one on ebay in US for silly money...

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    Don't throw your old VR case away. You (or someone who is so inclined) can put one of these inside the old case

    New Voltage Regulator Ford One 1 Wire Conversion Make Your Alternator A 1 Wire | eBay

    Just wire it to the correct terminals and you have an electronic VR that looks original.
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    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citroenthusiast View Post
    Don't throw your old VR case away. You (or someone who is so inclined) can put one of these inside the old case

    New Voltage Regulator Ford One 1 Wire Conversion Make Your Alternator A 1 Wire | eBay

    Just wire it to the correct terminals and you have an electronic VR that looks original.
    Have you tried one of these, John? I haven't had occasion to try one yet. They look like they're dead-nuts simple to hook up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Have you tried one of these, John? I haven't had occasion to try one yet. They look like they're dead-nuts simple to hook up.
    We've had a chat about these (or similar) in another thread some time ago - it would be interesting to follow this through and see a definitive wiring diagram for both BVM and BVH.

    I was fortunate in that Richo set me up with a very straightforward alternator swap with inbuilt regulator, but this issue crops up quite frequently as the original regulators are falling over.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    It's pretty straightforward, actually.
    The OE regulator has a built in ~8V relay that is normally closed. When the alternator is operating properly, the relay opens.
    On BVM cars the only thing the relay does is ground the light.
    On BVH cars the relay grounds the light AND the wand for the starter, thus it has to have fairly low impedance contacts. That's it for the difference in the wiring diagrams.

    Modern regulators do not have a dedicated light relay (or transistor). Instead, they go from a first state that is a high impedance ground (which is enough to illuminate a dash indicator light but not enough to operate a starter relay) to a second state that is +12 so there is no current and thus the dash indicator light is extinguished. The high impedance ground is the reason you cannot use a modern regulator with a BVH unless you do something with the starter wand.
    Cheers,
    John T.

    54 11BL; 61DS19 LHM (son's); 71DS21 BVH; 73SM 3.0; 73SM 2.7EFI; 73SM 3.0 (other son's); 74 Maserati Merak

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