ECU change over.
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Thread: ECU change over.

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Default ECU change over.

    Does anyone know what is involved in changing an ECU on a RHH engined C5 if the new ECU is from another RHH engined car. Also can ECU's be repaired and if so where.

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  2. #2
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    Hi
    I an no expert here but I do know there are a few different types of systems on the 2l petrol motors as they went along. So check the type you have and make sure that the replacement ECU is for the same system.
    I would think that you would have to get it to talk to your other computers with a Lexia to work OK.
    Jaahn

  3. #3
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Adding to what Jaahn says, I would expect that the ECU is coded to the VIN on your car, and since the system is a CAN-BUS, very likely that everything in the electrical system that has a control module needs to "handshake" according to that VIN. On some systems the VIN can be reprogrammed, on others no. I would be talking to an independent repair shop well-versed in PSA.

    Why do you need to change out the ECU? Do you have a hard code telling you of a catastrophic failure? I am loathe to change one out just for grins, like many parts-changers who pretend at electricals do
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 26th July 2016 at 01:07 PM.
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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Thanks Jaahn and Hotrod.
    Hotrod, the car tells me it has an "ENGINE MANAGEMENT FAULT". The engine light stays on after startup and this has happened for many months now. The Citroen dealer has had the car in several time to carry out normal services but the warning is still there. Over recent months the turbo and cruise have dropped out. The car runs fine without them but without any "grunt". After the last service I left the car with the dealer (they lent me a new Hyundai) for them to take time for a fault diagnosis. The upshot was a recommendation to change the CPU.
    You mentioned a "hard" code. An independent tuning specialist I saw a couple of days ago also mentioned a "hard" fault and said these faults should be easier to trace than the intermittent ones.
    I have located a CPU from another C5 from a wreckers, with the same engine VIN code.
    It would be wonderful to get the car back to normal. I have had a very kind offer from a couple of forum members in Tasi to have a look at the car and hopefully I will be able to visit and chat to them soon. One has a Lexia.
    The fault first appeared in Dec 2014 and was thought to be caused by low voltage from the original battery. The battery was changed and the fault went for a while. Then came back.
    The "faulty " battery is now in my boat and has started the engines with ease since the changeover. So it is way beyond my reasoning as to what is causing this problem.

  5. #5
    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    You will also need to know the 4 alphanumeric security code for the car so you can log the replacement ECU in to the BSI using a Lexia or Diagbox system. I also think you can only do this a limited number of times during the life of the car.

    Cheers, Ken

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    Default Hmmm !

    Hi Tassie C5,
    I would think that before you commit to another ECU you should do a VIN specific search on the Citroen site and see that the part number for the new ECU is the same as the original ECU part number. Perhaps that has been done ?

    The dealer could do this. Or if you supply the two Vin numbers I or someone on here could log in and look it up. It just requires logging into the official Citroen site and can be done by yourself if you wish to register and give a 'company name' and they just send the required log-on identity and password. It's a clunky site to navigate and you must remember to select English too unless your French is good
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 27th July 2016 at 09:15 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Thanks jaahn. The wrecker has confirmed that the part has the same number, but which number is it? I gave him Delphi
    HW 9666912580. There are 6 other numbers on the CPU also.

    ECU change over.-img_1545.jpg

    I will try the Citroen site as you suggested. Allan.
    PS What do I put in to the search bar to find the site.
    Last edited by tasie C5; 27th July 2016 at 11:07 AM.

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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Allan,

    The bottom 96 number will be the PSA built part number. Hopefully all the numbers will be the same. Depending how long it has been off the raod, it may be due some software updates. Are you going to get the dealers to fit it?

    Cheers Ken
    Last edited by Ken W; 27th July 2016 at 01:41 PM.

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    Alan,
    This is the site.
    CitroŽn Service
    Go to the bottom RH side and look for the little flag and select english as a first step.
    If you have problems registering PM me and I will help with some details.
    As far as the numbers go, that can be a mystery. But the official Citroen number is the defining one. Sometimes the others may vary. Also note any pefixes or suffixes which may be just as important.On the site you will see the numbers.
    Jaahn

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    You can't just change the engine ECU alone as it's VIN coded and needs to match at least the BSI's VIN. Buying just the ECU is pointless unless you know someone able to wipe it clean or transfer the entire contents of your own ECU to the donor ECU and the fault is certainly an electronic fault in your own ECU. If you change all of the required VIN-coded items your car will then assume the VIN identity etc. of the donor car and need to use the security code for that vehicle. If the donor has done 300K, then your car will probably become a 300K car with the swap. The donor BSI could also be differently configured to your car and you'd need the factory diagnostic tool and some knowledge to reconfigure it correctly. Personally, I'd change the brake switch and swap the engine slave unit, which isn't VIN-coded, before I waded in blind to an attempted DIY ECU/BSI swap. On the preceding engine in that series, quite a lot of problems were explained by faults with those two items. Even temporarily borrowing everything significant, including the dash, from another identical car to see if the problem moves or remains is an option a technician could pursue. The ECU is usually one of the more robust items. Re the battery, your boat will not make the same demands of it and even a weak battery can still kick over a small diesel boat engine for a prolonged period.

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Ken. Thanks for your comments. The car is not off the road and is a daily driver. In a previous post I expressed the frustration of the ENGINE FAULT warning light coming on and now the turbo and cruise not working. The diagnostics the dealer did recommended a new part (CPU)?
    I've just checked the part they said needed replacing and it says"INJ CALCULATOR" Part No. CT 194433. This was diagnosed in Singapore? (Sime Darby)apparently.

    David S. My feelings at the moment are that I will look at ALL ways of keeping the car complete. Can ECU's be decoded or stripped back to zero data or do NEW replacements come from Citroen with the vin codes etc programmed into the computer. I feel the fault must be something other than the CPU. I have a few pages of fault checks from the dealer.

    jaahn. I found the site and they wanted a VAT number in my data. Is this normal if so how do I avoid doing this.

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Got on yo the site last night. To confuse matters even more the CPU or "inj calculator" has a code of 194433.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    Got on to the site last night. To confuse matters even more the CPU or "inj calculator" has a code of 194433.
    Hi,
    Glad you have cracked the code to get on. Interesting isn't it. Or frustrating really.

    I searched for a 1944 33 and could not find it ?? Is that number correct. Is it the only one listed. It is about the right type but they usually seem to be around 1939** up to 1942**. The ** is very important also. EG 1942 P7.
    It could be a superceeded number but they usually show this. Or a recent replacement number.

    However I have not used your VIN and am uncertain the exact model. But it is also interesting that there is no Citroen part number like that on those numbers shown on yours ????
    Any shown somewhere else ?
    Jaahn

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    jaahn. My Vin VF7RDRHHAAL550372. I put this in on the top left vin search and all the car details came up.

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    The 96... numbers are generally an internal PSA reference not the published part number for recent models. Internally, they probably continue the part number series they used publicly up to the Xantia/XM era, but you don't order by them unless it's an old part carried over from an old model. Front strut return hoses for example - same part for Xantia, XM and C5. Mostly, Pug and Citroen use a 6 character part 'number' for ordering parts these days. Hence the ECU's 96.. number is NOT the part number you order by, but will help you compare and locate them used. While it is possible to order some items as pre-coded items, a dealer would typically order a new blank ECU and code and configure it to suit the car.

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    Hi
    I looked up the part numbers on the Citroen site using the VIN. There are actually two numbers listed for item one, (and no alternative/replacement shown either) :
    1944 33 and 16063 904 80. So there are two ECUs supplied, from different suppliers I guess. When saved into the parts box list they became, 0000194433 and 1606390480 so the Citroen system must use 10 digets for parts I guessed. I have also ordered parts from England by searching and ordering by those numbers on the site and had 100% success also and the parts always had labels with that number on them too.

    Now that may not help as that number is not on your ECU either However looking on Ebay I did find that 1606390480 number offered by a wrecker somewhere OS and it did not have it on the ECU label either but numbers which looked the same as on your label. Not very helpfull perhaps.

    When I ordered my parts from the Citroen Center in Sydney by phone or email I used the numbers and descriptions from the official site information(on the disc I had). They seemed happy with them and always supplied the exact item I was expecting ! They came in packets/boxes with those numbers on them also and PSA logos.

    Was that engine one that was produced by the consortium that supplied to Ford, PSA and Volvo etc. That may explain the odd number system.
    Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 30th July 2016 at 09:06 AM.

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Yes jaahn, the engine seems to be in those other cars.

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Still trying to work out why the fault is showing. I disconnected the battery for a while to see if the CPU would reset. So the car was closed up the key out and when I reconnected the earth wire a small spark jumped from the battery to the terminal wire. I thought this was odd as the car was shut down. Is there anything unusual about this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tasie C5 View Post
    Still trying to work out why the fault is showing. I disconnected the battery for a while to see if the CPU would reset. So the car was closed up the key out and when I reconnected the earth wire a small spark jumped from the battery to the terminal wire. I thought this was odd as the car was shut down. Is there anything unusual about this.
    Hi
    Short answer NO.
    Long answer is that there are a lot of things directly connected to the battery direct including the main ECU and may go into sleep mode when the key is switched off but are still live and do "charge up" when you first reconnect.
    If you think it is too much then measure the current and see it drops to a few milliamps after some time. If more that this then it may indicate a problem.
    Jaahn

  20. #20
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    What faults are showing on Lexia?
    Scotty

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    Fellow Frogger! tasie C5's Avatar
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    Demannu. The earth spark is I think normal as jaahn has indicated .

    The engine management faults are p107a..p0299..p2562..p1487 and p1499.
    Possibly your 3008 has the same engine?? These are from the dealers diagnostics.

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    P0299 and P2562 relate to the turbo pressure and position recopy being lower than expected. That could be pointing to a vacuum or solenoid issue. P1487 seems to be to do with EGR control, but the others ??? Perhaps, your documentation sheds more light on those codes. Certainly, each code is detailed in the factory diagnostic system with likely causes and consequences (i.e. downgrade of other items like cruise shutting off with a fault code being registered) and that may point you in a more useful direction. Maybe, you should do a leak test (buy a hand pump kit) of the vacuum circuit and components just to confirm there isn't a simple undiagnosed problem there?

    Sometimes, a failure doesn't have an obvious cause or fault code. For example, DW12B twin turbo 2.2 would give you odd faults and random limp modes (plus shoulder shrugging and hands in air!) when the air mixer valve down the front had it's controls eventually drown in fuel residue. The early vacuum air mixer/doser valve in the DW10B would stick shut and stall the engine sometimes. You have to consider that sort of issue and you might note the air doser valve on your engine has apparently evolved from 0345F4 to 96 775 158 80 for some reason I know not.
    .

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    Fellow Frogger! James504's Avatar
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    Id take it to another dealer... not sure how many there are in tas.

    Failing that check the actuator rod on the Air doser(I will attach a picture.) Follow the hose from the top of the intercooler to the plastic "throttle body" looking part on the bottom of the intake manifold. On RHH's it's common for this rod to snap and pop off the butterfly inside. Causing the same fault codes. Also check all the fuses in the engine bay fuse box.

    ECU change over.-259436.jpg
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    James. Thanks for your reply. The doser was one of the first diagnostic fault that came up in the dealers tests. They modified the rod and all was well for a short time. Since then I have dabbled with the doser and I'm still not sure of its functioning as it should. The doser you show on your post has only one valve which would suit my car as although it has a double doser, the left one ( intercooler bypass) is not connected and is closed. So is this a doser type off a PSA diesel?. Is it locally available. The Oring on mine is damaged, looks like it has been trapped on installation. Can't see how this would stop the valve functioning.
    Only one dealer in Tas.
    Allan.

  25. #25
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    Yes that picture is a psa doser. Depending on market and specs parts will change for the same motor but in different applications (508, 3008, 308 vs c5, c4 etc) and will also change on year model. Your vehicle will be fitted with the correct type. I'm not sure what if any markets still use the intercooler bypass, it has been phased out for a while now.

    The doser is used for egr functioning and for runaway prevention. This item is critical for the operation of the engine. Many times cars will come in with the same symptoms lack of power and engine light because the Plastic rod that controls the flap inside has broken and the flap closes under boost pressure.

    Damaged o'ring would have happened when dealer removed to inspect or replace. The doser has 3 bolts which connect to the manifold but then another 3 which bolt it down to a plastic backing plate. Which itself has 3 nuts that hold it to the block. To install it properly you need to lower this plastic backing plate, but most the time you can just squeeze the doser in but if you don't lubricate the seal it can get crushed.

    Having seen the above first hand it does lead to a boost leak, oil leak and associated fault codes. There is nothing mystical about the doser. It is vacuum operated by one of the 4 solenoids at the back of the cylinder head. It has a position copy sensor and that is about it. The solenoid is ecu controled and that's the only place it would get tricky.

    Perhaps you could take a good detail photo of the doser and the attached vacuum actuator and rod and post it here or via pm so I can have a look. Please don't change the ecu, its very very hard to diagnose a car over the internet/phone but I will safely say that 99.9% of the time the ecu isn't the culprit. Is taking the car to Melbourne to be looked at an option for you?
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