Traction, light 15, 1952 diff required !
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Thread: Traction, light 15, 1952 diff required !

  1. #1
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    Default Traction, light 15, 1952 diff required !

    Hi
    My mate and I have restored a 1952 Citroen Traction over some years. Now my mate is proceeding with the last stages which involves the gearbox reconditioning. (Actually he has done most of the work anyway). To help this some time back we purchased a gearbox which was said to be very good, a going unit and would be just a bolt in unit. Great !

    However it does not prove to be the case upon full examination. The crown wheel in the said box has some partial teeth missing . The other original box has some serious wear on the diff too and as it had no oil in it when we got it, and it has all leaked out when we fill it, that may explain why! The gearbox end looks as though he can rebuild a good gearbox out of the pair with the usual new parts.

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    Soooo . Does anyone have a good crown wheel and pinion ?
    Does any one suggest where we may purchase them.
    Does anyone have any comments on the new units that are available O/S. any recommendations.
    Any comments on the complete assembled gearboxes !
    You may feel free to quote prices too

    Thanks in advance Jaahn

    PS Swaps are great too. Have some good panels, guards, windows, rotissery ! bib and bobs and lots of other stuff. Just ask if interested.
    Last edited by jaahn; 24th July 2016 at 03:29 PM.

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Why don;t you post some piccies of the bits you have got (after a good cleaning) and see what Gerry thinks (he is the resident expert on these gearboxes). I doubt you will find a usable crown and pinion anywhere used........ You could try the citroen classics car club too. I've just noticed there parts list is now password protected though.
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  3. #3
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    This is what I'm going to have to re-use. The cost of replacement simply means it'll never be done otherwise!

    [Traction, light 15, 1952 diff required !-p1180768.jpgTraction, light 15, 1952 diff required !-p1180765.jpgTraction, light 15, 1952 diff required !-p1180762.jpg





    See the mark in the hardening....



    There is also a chip off the end of the tooth. I'm figuring (hoping) because this isn't really the wear surfaces it'll be ok. Realistically the car will be lucky to do a few thousand kms a year for the rest of it's life after all.

    Oh, by the way.... I missed all of this stuff.... It was Gerry that found it all within about 30seconds of looking at it

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 24th July 2016 at 05:56 PM.
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    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh, and I think this is the guy I ordered in parts from. They were quite prompt with postage. The parts only took a couple of weeks to get here. Prices .... well ... There cheap compared to "no made and not available anywhere"

    https://www.citroen-traction-avant.c...afts_and_forks

    If you want to have a good laugh at me, I have a thread going here:

    Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.

    I intend to have the gearbox back together and the car driving by spring!

    seeya,
    Shaen L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  5. #5
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    Hi
    Thanks for the replys Shane. Yes we will see about some pics etc and i looked at your pics.

    We have been following your rebuild with much interest, thanks for your effort to post it. We have also noted and copied some previous posts about these boxes, on AFs in the past. Thanks to those who posted them before also.

    Interestingly in a previous life, in the 60s I had a big 15. I rebuilt the motor with a bit of increased compression, less flywheel free flow muffler and an adjustable jet. Then I did a few motorkanas and some other hooning around, for some years. It was as cool as it got then and it had reclining front seats. I never had problems with the box or even looked at it. Knowing what is said these days I must have been skating on thin ice.

    We had a Light 15 some years later. Got married and went on honeymoon in it for a trip out west. We did quite a few Ks in it. Some time after we sold it on the box shit itself by splitting the case. In hind sight it probably ran low on oil and that was unnoticed by the new owner. I was not too smart but knew about checking and putting oil in everything if you wanted to keep things going. As I recall it had no obvious problems with the box before that.

    Checking your referenced guy, Jose Franssen, a place I had not seen before. He has crown wheel/ pinions sets new for 780 euros std 9/31, and 800 for 10/31.
    Any comments on the faster ratio if we buy new ??
    cheers Jaahn
    Last edited by jaahn; 24th July 2016 at 07:44 PM.
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    You could risk using that! BUT it will seriously detract from the value of the car. Buy a new crown and pinion from CTA!
    Also buy new Locking half rings for the pinion shaft, new bushes for the second/reverse gear cluster on the main shaft and new 3305 bearings for both the main and pinion shaft. Then be super fussy about the accuracy of the assembly.
    Opening up the diff may also be like opening a can of worms serious wear can occur here as well.
    Last edited by gerrypro; 24th July 2016 at 08:04 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Default Question ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    You could risk using that! BUT it will seriously detract from the value of the car. Buy a new crown and pinion from CTA!
    Also buy new Locking half rings for the pinion shaft, new bushes for the second/reverse gear cluster on the main shaft and new 3305 bearings for both the main and pinion shaft. Then be super fussy about the accuracy of the assembly.
    Opening up the diff may also be like opening a can of worms serious wear can occur here as well.
    Hi Gerry
    Would you like to clarify where you are directing the first paragraph, as I am not sure whether it refers to Shane's pinion or the new one from Jose'.

    I guess the items in the second paragraph were directed to us thanks.

    The third paragraph is a general statement that has already been observed by us both but what would be expected in a 65 year old car.
    cheers Jaahn

    PS the reason we sold the Light15 in my story was only because it was the sole thing we had worth money and we were try to get a deposit on a house. Ahhhh choices !
    Last edited by jaahn; 25th July 2016 at 10:09 AM.

  8. #8
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Gerry
    Would you like to clarify where you are directing the first paragraph, as I am not sure whether it refers to Shane's pinion or the new one from Jose'.

    I guess the items in the second paragraph were directed to us thanks.

    The third paragraph is a general statement that has already been observed by us both but what would be expected in a 65 year old car.
    cheers Jaahn

    PS the reason we sold the Light15 in my story was only because it was the sole thing we had worth money and we were try to get a deposit on a house. Ahhhh choices !
    The confusion is because I've hijacked your thread I'll take a photograph of the bits he's mentioned you will need. They were required for the gearbox here too.

    I'm not worried about resale value..... I have no intention of ever selling any of the cars I get.... It's taken me 20years to find the junk I have here.... No way would I get rid of while I can still enjoy tinkering with it!

    Do all the bearings in your gearbox feel remarkably unworn too ? The ones I have feel pretty much new (to my very un-educated hands). Was your gearbox missing the dowel key Gerry mentions too ?

    Do you have the dowel key that goes in between the splines on the mainshaft to peg the thrust washers for the second and third idlers?
    this part was completely missing from mine. I wonder if I would have noticed if Gerry hadn't mentioned it ( I find I refer to the exploded parts diagrams more than the manuals usually).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaahn View Post
    Hi Gerry
    Would you like to clarify where you are directing the first paragraph, as I am not sure whether it refers to Shane's pinion or the new one from Jose'.

    I guess the items in the second paragraph were directed to us thanks.

    The third paragraph is a general statement that has already been observed by us both but what would be expected in a 65 year old car.
    cheers Jaahn

    PS the reason we sold the Light15 in my story was only because it was the sole thing we had worth money and we were try to get a deposit on a house. Ahhhh choices !
    Hi Jaahn, Sorry I did not realise that the photos were of Shanes CW and P. I have inspected that one at his house and we came to the conclusion that it was quite usable. The advice to buy new is still sound though if there is any suspect area on your CW and P.
    Yes the Diff is likely to be that of a 65 year old car. But mileage and service frequency have more to do with the condition. The good news id that parts are available. This unit should not be overlooked on the Aussie theory that "She'll be Right Mate". The dowel key that Shane spoke of is under the synchro drum and serves to locate the nitrided thrust washers for the second and third synchro gears.
    Cheers Gerry

  10. #10
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    If you replace the crown and pinion.... The higher geared replacement set. Will that allow the car to cruise at 100km/h I can't see it impacting the performance too much given the way the long stroke engine is happy to lug away from very low revs. It's not like your going to be loading to the gills, towing trailers and doing hill starts with it these days!

    I'd like to have a look at an ID19 converted Traction some day .... Just to see how they did it!

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  11. #11
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    Default Higher gearing ?

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    If you replace the crown and pinion.... The higher geared replacement set. Will that allow the car to cruise at 100km/h I can't see it impacting the performance too much given the way the long stroke engine is happy to lug away from very low revs. It's not like your going to be loading to the gills, towing trailers and doing hill starts with it these days!

    I'd like to have a look at an ID19 converted Traction some day .... Just to see how they did it!
    seeya Shane L.
    Hi Shane,
    Well regarding the higher gearing, (or faster gearing so there is no confusion), I agree with your statements about not wanting to load it up, or tow etc etc. Also we do not have the Alps here which we need to negoitate with the family and the dogs etc for the holidays either.

    My experience with going back to drive some old cars from the 50/60s is the seemingly very low gearing and even at normal speeds, say 80Kms the engine seems to be reving too much. I am not sure that cruising at a 100Kms is the aim. But just a more relaxed day out for a drive on the road when you want to.

    If any one has done it then speakup now !! I have read in the past, a few reports of it being done but cannot just find them now!
    Jaahn

    I replaced the diff in an old diesel Hiace some years ago. It had a low diff and always felt like it was reving too much and on hills the next gear was too low so you had to slow down too much to use it.
    The replacement diff was higher and transformed the old girl for normal driving ! Much nicer to drive

  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Try the traction group if your considering upgrading the c&p. I'm sure there will be many there that have tried different ratios!

    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...tions/messages

    You will need to be a member of yahoogroups. I haven't read them for years as I simply don't have the time. However this has been the worldwide hangout for Citroen people for the last 20years (since the groups were hosted by Blair over in Canada).

    2CV-L
    C3-L
    C5-L
    citroen-aus Owner
    citroen-dsid
    citroenmegafiles2 Owner
    citroenmegafiles3 Owner
    CitroenMegafilesOne
    CitroensForSale
    citroentech
    CX-L
    DSeries-L
    DSID-L
    GS-GSA
    GSA-L
    megasquirt
    PA_Sandblasting
    Sport-Maserati-L
    TA-L
    Xantia-L
    XM-L

    These are the groups names of the citroen groups I'm a member of if I login. They are mostly english speaking. Oh, the SM group is sport-maserati. I'd suggest *not* joining any group with "SM" in the name ( they learnt that quickly back when the groups were established )

    seeya,
    shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    It's pretty noisy from 90 kms on, in top gear. Depends where you will do most of your driving I guess. Around smaller streets and roads, I would prefer the livelier normal ratio. Any long distance trips well ….overdrive anyone?
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Yes 10x31 ratio is the way to go to be able to hold your own in modern traffic.
    It is possible to sit on 110kph with a 9x31 but the engine is working very hard!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Having both a standard Light 15 and one with an ID 19 engine and gearbox, my comment would be that the standard is 'happy' at about 80-85 kph (remember 50mph was fast in the 1940/1950s, I remember !!!) and is only hindered by a slow gear change from 1st to 2nd in modern traffic ( see that massive 4WD fill the rear window as you depart the lights !!)and as Gerry P has stated will pull away in 2nd as long as it is moving.
    The converted car is a totally different beast , cruising easily and relatively quietly at 100 to 110 kmh , it is easy to drive in modern traffic due to much more flexibility in the gears (God only knows why CitroŽn never put a 4 speed in post ww2).
    I have also driven a standard car with a 10/31 diff. It is quite a good cruiser,but in traffic you do have to ride the clutch a bit on start esp if up hill and it has reduced flexibility in 2nd gear compared to 9/31 which I guess is obvious.
    That's is my 2p worth
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  16. #16
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    Bobsie's quite correct . Most of us old blokes remember well sitting in the family sedan, whatever it was and thinking 50 - 55 mph was pretty fast. Of course today our cars are quite comfortable at much greater speed. I remember my dad getting the old A70 up to 80 mph on a back road somewhere ' to see what it could do' and it was real seat on the edge stuff!
    jaahn likes this.
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsie View Post
    (God only knows why CitroŽn never put a 4 speed in post ww2).
    They had made several attempts to produce a four speed box. I fact I think that it was Pierre Michelin that was killed when he crashed the test car. It became more practical to focus the development work on the VGD project that was to become the new DS.
    Cheers Gerry

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