Yet another YouTube video of the DS
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Default Yet another YouTube video of the DS

    This came up on my recommended list at YouTube. It's in Australian, so understanding it shouldn't be a problem.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_OKcWqlD4

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    Thanks for posting :-) Every bit of inspiration helps me with wanting to get mine going!

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushyben View Post
    Thanks for posting :-) Every bit of inspiration helps me with wanting to get mine going!

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    Dude, we're here, we can help! Where do you need to start on your car? Someone here has experienced that problem.
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    Thanks heaps! My biggest issue is having the time and $ at the same time. But got to a stage where I don't need to spend much and will have heaps to keep me going for ages... Will be working on it a bit tomorrow. Have spheres all re gassed, new LHM, new water pump, radiator recored, have another car with wiring etc to transfer over...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    This came up on my recommended list at YouTube. It's in Australian, so understanding it shouldn't be a problem.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_OKcWqlD4
    Hi Bill, I remember that red 1960 ID19 very well. I assisted Bob King in repairing and repainting the all aluminium boot lid for it! Good to see it looking even better than it was then in the new owners hands!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Hi Bill, I remember that red 1960 ID19 very well. I assisted Bob King in repairing and repainting the all aluminium boot lid for it! Good to see it looking even better than it was then in the new owners hands!
    Very cool, Gerry. I suspected someone here might recognize the car. Like here in the States, you guys run in a fairly tight circle. Have a story to go with it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushyben View Post
    Thanks heaps! My biggest issue is having the time and $ at the same time. But got to a stage where I don't need to spend much and will have heaps to keep me going for ages... Will be working on it a bit tomorrow. Have spheres all re gassed, new LHM, new water pump, radiator recored, have another car with wiring etc to transfer over...

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    What year are we talking about? Wiring wise, the '68, '69 and early '70 cars are going to be a bit more work than just transferring over. By the numbers, I can talk you through it. Fiddly, but not difficult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Very cool, Gerry. I suspected someone here might recognize the car. Like here in the States, you guys run in a fairly tight circle. Have a story to go with it?
    Not really Bill, Bob bought the car back in the early nineties and restored it very nicely, but to a budget. It had been fitted with a steel boot lid and of course was showing its age with the usual perforation occurring on the trailing edge. He already had the aluminium lid but it was in need of some panel beating and re-bonding of the inner frame. I was offered some casual work to assist in his various projects so together we tackled the difficult parts as he was already nudging his seventies. Bob is a fastidious worker and is well known for his restorations on various D models. He usually sold them for very good money when completed and they are all now in the hands of appreciative collectors.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Story enough for me, Gerry. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    What year are we talking about? Wiring wise, the '68, '69 and early '70 cars are going to be a bit more work than just transferring over. By the numbers, I can talk you through it. Fiddly, but not difficult.
    My CitroŽn is 70 or 71. The car I am taking the wiring out of is 72. Are the earlier ones a bit more difficult because of the corrosion some of them had? Might not be "correct" having a later wiring harness but if it works I'm happy :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushyben View Post
    My CitroŽn is 70 or 71. The car I am taking the wiring out of is 72. Are the earlier ones a bit more difficult because of the corrosion some of them had? Might not be "correct" having a later wiring harness but if it works I'm happy :-)

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    The early '70 was prone to the same problems as the '69. That is, the black wire insulation would dry out and flake or crumble off. Citroen must have changed suppliers, because the later '70 and on don't normally exhibit that problem. You should however take the time to clean the ends from your donor harness, because that brass also likes to corrode. For the 4mm females. I've had some good luck with a Dremel and a small rotary stone that will fit inside, and a couple or three passes on each "finger" of the terminal. You can do the same with the male pins. Finish the connection with a small amount of bulb grease- not petroleum jelly, that stuff will melt and leave a hell of a mess.

    If you find any split or missing rubber insulators, now would be the time to change them. Also, I have all of the colors for the wire ends. Replace faded or muddy ones before you fit the rubber bits. You can also rewrap the harness as necessary.

    Be warned that the main-to-rear connection is different for the '72 compared to the '70-'71. This connection is under the air box on the passenger side (for you), and you will have to remove the air box along with the dash to get at the connection. It's only two bolts/screws holding it in place (lower front edge of the dash shelf), but the rubber seal is going to be a bit tough to break free from. It's going to be a little confusing to get the connection right. I can help guide you through it once you get to that point.

    Pretty much everything under hood and at the cluster and steering pod should hook up the same, unless there's some weird Aussie market thing I don't know about. Modifying the turn indicators so you have individual left-and-right instead of both flashing at the same time is a doddle.

    Is your car BVM/BVH/BVA, and are you using the original alternator/regulator setup? I'm asking, because the start circuit for each of the three transmissions is different, and modifying for a different alternator will be considerably easier on an open harness.
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    Cool, thanks for all the info! The car I am.oulling harness out of is a 72 Sedan four speed manual. What I'm putting it into is a bvh Safari. (Not many about) So I know there is some different wiring for the starter operation as you use the gear leaver to get starter motor to turn? I will be using the original Alternator set up...

    Do you have any hints for fitting the headlights? Would love to get them fitted and working as it will actually look like a car when that's done! :-)

    Thanks again! Are you on Facebook or anything btw for messenger?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushyben View Post
    Cool, thanks for all the info! The car I am.oulling harness out of is a 72 Sedan four speed manual. What I'm putting it into is a bvh Safari. (Not many about) So I know there is some different wiring for the starter operation as you use the gear leaver to get starter motor to turn? I will be using the original Alternator set up...

    Do you have any hints for fitting the headlights? Would love to get them fitted and working as it will actually look like a car when that's done! :-)

    Thanks again! Are you on Facebook or anything btw for messenger?

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    Not many BVH Safaris period.

    Yes, the start circuit is different between a manual and hydraulic. Pour yourself a glass of your favorite adult poison, this is going to take a minute.

    For the 3-dial cars, the start circuit was:
    For the BVM, it was a battery+ signal from the key to a connection next to the battery + post. From there, a wire ran inside a black vinyl sheath with the battery + cable and down to the starter. The wire end color sleeves at the battery are red, a 4mm female and male. The anti-repeat feature is a part of the switch, not the wiring. For the BVH cars: the shift wand acts as a ground for the starter solenoid.

    On the BVH cars, there is a rather crude switch which controls the grounding of the solenoid. The wand will (if the switch hasn't broken from work hardening) close the contacts on this switch, grounding the solenoid by way of the charge light. When the light goes out, you can't accidentally restart the car. Anyway, the wire from the switch leads out to the solenoid on the battery. Ground the red sleeved wire, and the daisy wheel contacts close, sending current to the starter.

    Note that on the later '72 and on) cars, the starters will be the same, but the BVH cars will have a buss bar between the solenoid tab (by now, all starters had mounted solenoids regardless of model) and the battery + post. I think this was a cost cutting move- why have two starters in stock when one would do the job?

    You can fit the manual shift ignition switch (yes- they are different) to your BVH wagon. Just know that you will lose the stalk start switch, replaced with the key switch.

    Sorry- I don't have any tips or tricks for the turning lamps. We didn't get them here as a normal feature. Just off the top of my head (on, what a cooling breeze!!) I would PM Chris (Greenblood).
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    The Black connector sleeves would perish and split on my 65 DS19M Pallas. One day there was a great deal of smoke from the dash. One live connector had dropped off its male pin and shorted. The fuel gauge never worked again after that!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    The Black connector sleeves would perish and split on my 65 DS19M Pallas. One day there was a great deal of smoke from the dash. One live connector had dropped off its male pin and shorted. The fuel gauge never worked again after that!
    All the rest of your cluster works, Gerry? I'm trying to think of how that would have happened. Possible that the ignition feed (I think is purple on that) for the instrument cluster is what shorted, likely against the cluster body. The dead short popped a rather sensitive fuel gauge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Not many BVH Safaris period.

    Yes, the start circuit is different between a manual and hydraulic. Pour yourself a glass of your favorite adult poison, this is going to take a minute.

    For the 3-dial cars, the start circuit was:
    For the BVM, it was a battery+ signal from the key to a connection next to the battery + post. From there, a wire ran inside a black vinyl sheath with the battery + cable and down to the starter. The wire end color sleeves at the battery are red, a 4mm female and male. The anti-repeat feature is a part of the switch, not the wiring. For the BVH cars: the shift wand acts as a ground for the starter solenoid.

    On the BVH cars, there is a rather crude switch which controls the grounding of the solenoid. The wand will (if the switch hasn't broken from work hardening) close the contacts on this switch, grounding the solenoid by way of the charge light. When the light goes out, you can't accidentally restart the car. Anyway, the wire from the switch leads out to the solenoid on the battery. Ground the red sleeved wire, and the daisy wheel contacts close, sending current to the starter.

    Note that on the later '72 and on) cars, the starters will be the same, but the BVH cars will have a buss bar between the solenoid tab (by now, all starters had mounted solenoids regardless of model) and the battery + post. I think this was a cost cutting move- why have two starters in stock when one would do the job?

    You can fit the manual shift ignition switch (yes- they are different) to your BVH wagon. Just know that you will lose the stalk start switch, replaced with the key switch.

    Sorry- I don't have any tips or tricks for the turning lamps. We didn't get them here as a normal feature. Just off the top of my head (on, what a cooling breeze!!) I would PM Chris (Greenblood).
    Hmm I have only just started on wiring.. So far so good. Slow presses cleaning the male/female connections properly and fitting new rubber. I will be using s later ignition, once I work out how to get the barrel out of the anti ateeringt lock thing as my ignition is on opposite side. Will have try to work out the starter from gear leaver... Makes sense what you're saying, still tricky as I have know images to go from to see it.

    Thanks heaps for your help!
    Cheers,
    Ben

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    Yah, just take it easy, take it slow, and if you don't understand something, STOP!! Talk to one of us. Dumb questions are easier and cheaper to fix than dumb mistakes.

    Sorry that I don't have any images to share- I just kinda do this automatically. If you have it (every body should have it, thanks to dedication by a lot of people) break open 814-1. Go to the final pages of the diagrams. You will see layout diagrams, component hookup diagrams, a bulb chart, a fuse chart (useful only for the 4-pin boxes, though) and a wire schedule. That wire schedule is your key. The circuit numbers are listed on the hookup diagram and the schedule. The circuit number corresponds with what components are on that circuit. For example, circuit 9: you will see that it goes from the ignition switch through a fuse out to the volt reg, the instrument cluster, the wiper switch, and so on. And yes- pay attention to the color sleeves. Those are also marked on the schedule, along with the layout diagram and the hookup diagram. Remember that there are 10 colors of sleeves, the idea being that there would be no more than 10 connections in any one spot, save for the main-to-rear connect. There is I think 12 there, but the terminals are reversed on the final 2.

    Like I said- not hard, just fiddly. And don't feel bad if you take a while doing this. Real life interrupts. Hell, I charge out 3-4 days to do an install, simply because you need time to correct someone else's "work" or to fix faulty parts.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 7th August 2016 at 11:26 AM.
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    Hey,
    Thanks heaps again! So far I have done ok connecting up everything that I have marked and cleaning terminals etc then re connecting to same color. Jist time consuming getting them clean and putting on new over the female bullet connectors. One thing I'm not sure about is thr basics for wiring a alternator. There was a bosh alternator on the car I got the harness out of... Have three small wires going to one plug that plugged in to it plus the main one with a nut to tighten on. Now the one on mine only seems to have plave for one wire and main wire. And how does wiring the regulator work? Are they the same for all alternators or...? Probably straight forward just haven't looked into it yet.
    Hopefully I can get a key cut during the week so I can turn on ignition next weekend...
    Thanks again, Ben

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    If you're playing with a Bosch alternator, chances are beyond good that it's an internal regulator. You'll have three wires on that: the two heavier ones are battery output, the smaller one is ignition trip. The ignition trip will come off of the wiring for the charge light. Normally that would be the red sleeved wire at the original regulator (one of four). If the sleeve has been cut off, it can be traced back. I'll have to look it up, I forget what connector at the cluster it leads to. But it's a single wire out, and leads nowhere else.

    If you're running a factory alternator with the external regulator (that sorta sounds like what you have) Then yes, you have three wires- two smaller, and the battery out. The two smaller wires will have a white sleeved (rotor) lead and a yellow sleeved (field) lead. The Battery out has a black sleeve. The white and the yellow will go to the regulator (white and yellow to R and EXC respectively). Also at the regulator is a red sleeve (L) which goes to your lamp (on the hydraulic shift cars it also is the anti-repeat feature) and a BOB, which is the ignition on for the regulator. This one can be mauve or purple.

    Since I'm staring at it, the charge lamp at the cluster is the green connector, mauve sleeve.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    All the rest of your cluster works, Gerry? I'm trying to think of how that would have happened. Possible that the ignition feed (I think is purple on that) for the instrument cluster is what shorted, likely against the cluster body. The dead short popped a rather sensitive fuel gauge.
    No, The feed from the tank was completely fried. Too much work to replace, so we just kept the tank full after that. I sold the car to Dad as it was full of rust problems that I could not live with. Dad however didn't mind the soggy bottoms of the sills or the jacking point at the rear that could not be used for fear of the jack head punching straight through. Panels on the other hand were really good. The car is now dismantled and in the possession of Tim Cotterill a fellow Frogger. He has sourced a 64 Chassis on which to hang all of the good Pallas bits!
    Cheers Gerry

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    G'day Hot rod electric,

    I have a feeling the alternator on the car has a built in regulator as thetr is only the one wire to go in plus main one with nut to hold it in. Will try and get a brand/number for it.

    I'm going to put in a aftermarket ignition switch for now. From what I have read from previous threads: Red: Power in Green: Fuse box Blue: Ignition Mauve: Heater fan etc... I'd assume black wire is earth? And what's the yellow?

    So with that is it just the red or just the green that's power in and the rest comes on when ignition is turned on? Originally the brown and the white extrs wires were for starting, which I'll deal with later seeings my one is BVH?

    Do you know the colors lf wires for the relay for turn signal and the wiper motor?

    Just thought if I can re wire a igniton one evening it's one less job to do on the weekend :-)

    Thanks heaps!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushyben View Post
    G'day Hot rod electric,

    I have a feeling the alternator on the car has a built in regulator as thetr is only the one wire to go in plus main one with nut to hold it in. Will try and get a brand/number for it.

    I'm going to put in a aftermarket ignition switch for now. From what I have read from previous threads: Red: Power in Green: Fuse box Blue: Ignition Mauve: Heater fan etc... I'd assume black wire is earth? And what's the yellow?

    So with that is it just the red or just the green that's power in and the rest comes on when ignition is turned on? Originally the brown and the white extrs wires were for starting, which I'll deal with later seeings my one is BVH?

    Do you know the colors lf wires for the relay for turn signal and the wiper motor?

    Just thought if I can re wire a igniton one evening it's one less job to do on the weekend :-)

    Thanks heaps!

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    I do know that Iskra makes a dead-nuts ringer for the factory Ducellier, and it is a "one-wire" hookup.

    Alrighty- this is going to take a few. Please bear with me.

    I'm assuming you're using the wiring from the '72, so we'll work from that.

    There will be 3 (hydraulic shift) or 4 (manual shift) pair of wires on that switch. 3 (4) inputs and 3 (4) outputs. Those inputs and outputs are:
    Black wire, red sleeve: battery in for coil
    Black wire, blue sleeve: battery out to coil
    Black wire, green sleeve: in from "red" fuse Correction: yellow wire, green sleeve
    Yellow wire, mauve sleeve: fused ignition output to instrument cluster, heater fan, wiper motor, wiper switch
    Black wire, no sleeve: in from "green" fuse
    Yellow wire, no sleeve: fused ignition output to regulator at "BOB", brake light switch, turn signal switch, and rear defroster if you have it.

    Concerning the start switch wires if you have a BVM: There will be two additional wires on that switch- a brown one with a brown sleeve, and a white one with a white sleeve. I don't know for sure about the Aussie market cars, but for us, that brown wire took a battery tap from the headlight + supply. In other words, instead of just connecting the battery + supply to the headlight switch, a "Y" was inserted, and the other end of that "Y" was connected to the brown wire at the ignition switch. The white wire connected to a black wire with a white sleeve, which eventually becomes a red sleeve, connecting to a wire which runs in a sheath with the battery connection to the starter.
    Now, it's possible your loom has another style of connection: there is a pair of wires, both black, one with a brown sleeve, the other in white. Your switch wires will connect here. Make sure that the brown sleeve gets battery+ if you're using the starter mounted- not battery mounted- solenoid. If not, you can use the US workaround.

    For the BVH, it's a little different. The starter solenoid is mounted on the battery, and is activated with a ground signal. You can use the BVM ignition switch for this, just you lose the cool "start with the shift wand" feature. You again will have a pair of wires, both black, one in white, the other in brown. These will both connect to the start switch at the shift stalk. One of these- the brown- is connected to the "L" terminal on the regulator (in your case, was) This is how the factory gave you the anti-repeat function. Once the ground was taken away from the charge lamp (the control relay was shut "off"), there was no ground supplied to the start switch. The other wire went out to the red connection on the solenoid, completing the ground circuit.

    You asked if the black meant ground. In a normal world, they do. But we are talking old school Citroen, so no. They most emphatically do not!! If you look underhood, you will see virtually every wire on the main loom and about 1/2 underdash are black. The only way to be reasonably sure of knowing it's a ground is if the end has a brown or no sleeve. Even then, that isn't 100%. If there is a black sleeve, bet that the wire is a battery+. If you think this is bad, try the Peugeot 505 I had: the grounds were yellow with a green tracer!

    For your turn signal flasher, I think everybody got the 3-terminal cans. Most market however used just two of the terminals: the battery + in, and the flasher out, which went to the center of the turn switch. The dash indicators were simple taps off of the left and right circuits. For those that got the flasher that flashed both indicators at the same time, it was simply that third terminal- the pilot lamp output- connected to both indicators.

    There is no wiper motor relay. What you will have is 4 wires going into a block connector, plus a separate wire for the washer function. The wires into that block are:
    Yellow: ignition+ in by way of "red" fuse
    White: out to motor "park"
    Blue: out to motor "low"
    Red: out to motor "high"
    From the yellow wire, there is also a tap that goes out to the motor. The white, blue, and red go to the corresponding terminals on the motor.

    What do you mean by rewire an ignition? Do you mean a switch? The little bit of looking around I've done, nothing works quite like that. You need at least 3 separate inputs and outputs. If it weren't for the way the fusebox is setup, you could make a generic switch work.


    I should charge by the word. I could retire comfortably by now.

    EDIT: Marc61 discovered a flaw in my description of the ignition switch wiring. I'm grateful to be able to make the correction.
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 10th August 2016 at 09:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I do know that Iskra makes a dead-nuts ringer for the factory Ducellier, and it is a "one-wire" hookup.

    Alrighty- this is going to take a few. Please bear with me.

    I'm assuming you're using the wiring from the '72, so we'll work from that.

    There will be 3 (hydraulic shift) or 4 (manual shift) pair of wires on that switch. 3 (4) inputs and 3 (4) outputs. Those inputs and outputs are:
    Black wire, red sleeve: battery in for coil
    Black wire, blue sleeve: battery out to coil
    Black wire, green sleeve: in from "red" fuse Correction: yellow wire, green sleeve
    Yellow wire, mauve sleeve: fused ignition output to instrument cluster, heater fan, wiper motor, wiper switch
    Black wire, no sleeve: in from "green" fuse
    Yellow wire, no sleeve: fused ignition output to regulator at "BOB", brake light switch, turn signal switch, and rear defroster if you have it.

    Concerning the start switch wires if you have a BVM: There will be two additional wires on that switch- a brown one with a brown sleeve, and a white one with a white sleeve. I don't know for sure about the Aussie market cars, but for us, that brown wire took a battery tap from the headlight + supply. In other words, instead of just connecting the battery + supply to the headlight switch, a "Y" was inserted, and the other end of that "Y" was connected to the brown wire at the ignition switch. The white wire connected to a black wire with a white sleeve, which eventually becomes a red sleeve, connecting to a wire which runs in a sheath with the battery connection to the starter.
    Now, it's possible your loom has another style of connection: there is a pair of wires, both black, one with a brown sleeve, the other in white. Your switch wires will connect here. Make sure that the brown sleeve gets battery+ if you're using the starter mounted- not battery mounted- solenoid. If not, you can use the US workaround.

    For the BVH, it's a little different. The starter solenoid is mounted on the battery, and is activated with a ground signal. You can use the BVM ignition switch for this, just you lose the cool "start with the shift wand" feature. You again will have a pair of wires, both black, one in white, the other in brown. These will both connect to the start switch at the shift stalk. One of these- the brown- is connected to the "L" terminal on the regulator (in your case, was) This is how the factory gave you the anti-repeat function. Once the ground was taken away from the charge lamp (the control relay was shut "off"), there was no ground supplied to the start switch. The other wire went out to the red connection on the solenoid, completing the ground circuit.

    You asked if the black meant ground. In a normal world, they do. But we are talking old school Citroen, so no. They most emphatically do not!! If you look underhood, you will see virtually every wire on the main loom and about 1/2 underdash are black. The only way to be reasonably sure of knowing it's a ground is if the end has a brown or no sleeve. Even then, that isn't 100%. If there is a black sleeve, bet that the wire is a battery+. If you think this is bad, try the Peugeot 505 I had: the grounds were yellow with a green tracer!

    For your turn signal flasher, I think everybody got the 3-terminal cans. Most market however used just two of the terminals: the battery + in, and the flasher out, which went to the center of the turn switch. The dash indicators were simple taps off of the left and right circuits. For those that got the flasher that flashed both indicators at the same time, it was simply that third terminal- the pilot lamp output- connected to both indicators.

    There is no wiper motor relay. What you will have is 4 wires going into a block connector, plus a separate wire for the washer function. The wires into that block are:
    Yellow: ignition+ in by way of "red" fuse
    White: out to motor "park"
    Blue: out to motor "low"
    Red: out to motor "high"
    From the yellow wire, there is also a tap that goes out to the motor. The white, blue, and red go to the corresponding terminals on the motor.

    What do you mean by rewire an ignition? Do you mean a switch? The little bit of looking around I've done, nothing works quite like that. You need at least 3 separate inputs and outputs. If it weren't for the way the fusebox is setup, you could make a generic switch work.


    I should charge by the word. I could retire comfortably by now.

    EDIT: Marc61 discovered a flaw in my description of the ignition switch wiring. I'm grateful to be able to make the correction.
    Thanks heaps gort all your help!

    Quick question with starter in bvh, where is the switch in relation to gear lever?

    Here is a pic of the original plug and put on new wires that are the original colors to make it look a bit better. Pink being mauve. I am guessing I have it right Red, Black, Green for input and Pink, Yellow, Blue for output with ignition on?


    Thanks again,
    Ben

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bushyben View Post
    Thanks heaps gort all your help!

    Quick question with starter in bvh, where is the switch in relation to gear lever?

    Here is a pic of the original plug and put on new wires that are the original colors to make it look a bit better. Pink being mauve. I am guessing I have it right Red, Black, Green for input and Pink, Yellow, Blue for output with ignition on?


    Thanks again,
    Ben

    Sent from my GT-S7275T using Tapatalk
    I meant "thanks again for all your help" :-)

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Actually, I think 'gort'is kinda adorable.

    The start switch on a BVH is just past the cluster on the shift stalk. Look straight down the steering column, and you'll see it. It's basically a rather crude microswitch with an unfortunate tendency to crack due to work hardening, and fail after 40-50 years of service. When you change out the shift mechanism, I would recommend replacing that switch. It's a simple in-out switch, does not need to be that particular one, but you do need to pay attention to positioning and throw at that little tab on the shift rod that does the actuating.

    And yah, mauve is a sort of purplish-pink. You say pink, I know what you're looking at.

    You have it, the ins and outs are correct.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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