Suspension feed nut buggered
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Thread: Suspension feed nut buggered

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Default Suspension feed nut buggered

    In the process of replacing rear suspension boots on my D.
    One of the hydraulic feed line nuts is badly rounded, proving to be impossible me to loosen.
    What are my options?
    Cheers
    Steve

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  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I'm going to speak "generally" as I had this problem on a Triumph Spitfire clutch master cylinder.

    First I used vise grips to loosen the nut, then I carefully resized it with a flat file, taking half a mil off each face (I set my sliding calipers to half a mil over the finished size while I filed the first three adjacent flats). I used slips of soft metal and the vise grips to hold the threaded part of the nut still whilst filing each face in turn.

    I think it was a sixteenth sizing actually, not mm, but you get the idea; it worked and was the least hassle, most original.
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  3. #3
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    try tightening it first to 'crack' it? which line is it? A man named Andre in Holland now has his wares online! If you need another,
    Group 3: Axles, Suspension, Steering, Hydraulic units, Piping | Citroën André Spareparts

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    You need to replace the line .... see if the other end will unscrew .... Even if someone in the area has a bubble flare tool and a new line nut. The original metal lines the cheaper bubble flare tools don't tend to work on (they work well on the softer cupro-nickle lines)

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Steve,
    Are you using a Flare nut spanner, 8mm? If you are maybe get hold of 5/16" it would be a smidge smaller and may grip. Next best is addo's suggestion and file the flats down to the next size available possibly 1/4".

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Assuming it's a late D those nuts are 9mm. Yes, you need a flare nut spanner. I suggest 6 point for best gripping. Yes, try tightening it a little. Yes, use a vice grip if you have to. Yes, file the flats if you have to and go down a size. Yes, replace the line.

    Roger

  7. #7
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    Assuming it's a late D those nuts are 9mm. Yes, you need a flare nut spanner. I suggest 6 point for best gripping. Yes, try tightening it a little. Yes, use a vice grip if you have to. Yes, file the flats if you have to and go down a size. Yes, replace the line.

    Roger
    Oops, thanks Roger yes starting point would be 9mm not 8mm

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  8. #8
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Which options would you disapprove of, Roger?

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Which options would you disapprove of, Roger?
    That might be dependent on which side, Left would be fairly straightforward to replace and a smaller line - Right a bigger job and possibly more costly. If it were me I'd go down a size and tag the line nut for the next owner.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  10. #10
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    If your spanner grips on the corners and not the flats, you have little chance of it gripping now even if it's a flare spanner. Probably your best bet without doing more damage is something that is like a Vice Grip but designed to grip a hex head. Plier Spanners like the Raptor from Knippex may do it because they tighten their grip the harder you push which is different to a spanner. I admit to having a similar problem on an XM recently and having to resort to the Channel-Lock pliers to get it to budge. Not the same type of pipe end and it the couple of grooves left in the nut inspired me to buy the Raptor pliers for a next time. I didn't need to replace it, although it's a little damaged. For the DS, it's not a though you need to go there regularly and it doesn't have to be very tight as you only need to suitably compress the rubber seal, not make firm metal to metal contact. If it's stuck, it's been overtightened before or it's rusted in.

    If you have to replace the pipe nut, Chassin's book Why Citroen suggests one possible repair is to braze a bead or olive onto the line if you do not have the forming tools. You can salvage a pipe nut from a wreck or chase up a new one.
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  11. #11
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    The pipe to the right hand rear cylinder is not hard to replace. I have done it in a car park. The photo of Cricy's backside that once graced the top banner of this website was taken at that time. I just happened to have a spare of that pipe tucked into the roof rail!

    Addo, I disapprove of none of the suggested methods, and probably none of the methods that haven't yet been suggested. The question is what order to do them. I would start by hitting the nut with a punch (in line with the pipe) to help loosen it. Then try with a 6 point flare nut spanner in both directions. Then try to file flats and use a smaller flare nut spanner. I have had success using this method on dodgy oil sump plugs. Then David S's suggestions of self-tightening pliers (although I note the Knipex raptor only goes down to 10 mm). I have not had much success with vice grips on flare nuts. Self tightening pliers sound like they would work better. I don't have any, so there's a tool purchase coming up for me. A small pipe wrench might work. I wouild be reluctant to use heat, too much cookable rubber nearby. Most of these options will destroy the nut, but it sounds like it is already stuffed. If refiling does not work you will have to replace the pipe. IF you can't get one from your parts car you will have to find someone who can make one for you.

    Roger

  12. #12
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    Yes, those Raptor pliers are 10mm minimum, but it closes to a firm 9mm anyway. However, you could place a small strip of steel on the lower arm to grip a 9mm nut very tightly indeed. The problem nut on the XM was a front brake hose joint, which is 14mm IIRC and has to be tight as it has no rubber seal.

    Another option is these locking flare nut pliers carried by Amazon.
    http://www.amazon.com/OTC-6720-Flare.../dp/B00IJDK8LQ
    The quality is not quite as for Knippex, but they will get into places the Knippex pliers can't.

    Even if the nut is rounded off on the DS, it can be tightened up again with pliers enough to do the job. Ugly but still effective.

  13. #13
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    I have never seen those locking flare nut pliers either. I doubt they would work on a rounded nut though. Flare nuts are often in tight places so my approach to flare nut spanners is to have a variety of styles and shapes such as 6 point, 12 point, swivel, crowfoot style. The Snap-on combination flare nut spanners are good because the open end is nearly twice as thick as a normal open end so they are really rigid for the times when you have to approach the nut on an angle.

    Roger

  14. #14
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Knipex Raptors are $45 free delivery on ebay as I type! Just ordered! I hadn't seen them before - look excellent.

    Thanks for that information.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    That might be dependent on which side, Left would be fairly straightforward to replace and a smaller line - Right a bigger job and possibly more costly. If it were me I'd go down a size and tag the line nut for the next owner.

    Cheers
    Chris
    Next owner ??? surely we develop lasting relationships with these cars.... we don't trade them like cattle.

    For this problem...... I would raid a parts car...... surely you have a parts car or 2?

    Or...... I would cut a couple of inches off the end of the pipe, replace the nut, machine up a joining socket out of 1/4" tube or a bit of round steel, and silver solder the end back on.

    When I say silver solder I mean proper 45% silver not the crappy 5% stuff that plumbers use. Silver solder is the most wonderful repair stuff. it is VERY strong, joins any ferrous or cuprous metals, is easy with basic equipment, and is more permanent than the steel tube. I've repaired dozens of hydraulic lines over the years, and made hydraulic adaptors for all sort of purposes.
    Its the most versatile method available to us. I can't rave about silver solder enough... I don't understand why so few people use it.

    Another method:
    I have seen..... in fact its in my parts collection somewhere..... a very clever person repaired this exact problem by making a new nut out of two.

    He filed down 2 nuts into half nuts.... with the joint line along the nut... he then simply slid the old nut back, fitted the half nuts over the tube and inserted them into the female. Once started they behaved exactly as a normal nut, with the female holding them together, a spanner could be applied normally and it tightened against the seal, and worked for years.
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    Bob
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  16. #16
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Next owner ??? surely we develop lasting relationships with these cars.... we don't trade them like cattle.

    For this problem...... I would raid a parts car...... surely you have a parts car or 2?
    Bob, my current DSpecial was bought at a 'deceased estate' auction and will probably experience dejavu - I've looked after her since around 1996 and have no intention of trading her like cattle. . .

    I have a 2 car garage on a suburban block and run a small (read, very small) business from that space, the D is stored high and dry whilst our C5 sits outside looking a little sad - a parts car? I wish. . . we work with what we have!

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Regarding the nut that is the real subject of this thread, given the way they work to compress the little rubber seal is there any reason why it wouldn't work with a new one split longitudinally with a very fine diamond saw. You could even sacrifice two new ones so that each half was exactly the right size. The socket into which the pipe is inserted would hold it all together once the two halves were engaged in the female thread. The old nut, if irretrievable, could be cut off the same way.

    Regarding Greenblood: a small business maybe, but a very good one!

    Cheers
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    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Regarding the nut that is the real subject of this thread, given the way they work to compress the little rubber seal is there any reason why it wouldn't work with a new one split longitudinally with a very fine diamond saw. You could even sacrifice two new ones so that each half was exactly the right size. The socket into which the pipe is inserted would hold it all together once the two halves were engaged in the female thread. The old nut, if irretrievable, could be cut off the same way.

    Regarding Greenblood: a small business maybe, but a very good one!

    Cheers
    Yessssss John, that would work!
    Bob
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  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Sounds like an interesting business opportunity to me, but for the size of the market!!
    JohnW

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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the input, much appreciated.
    Used a variety of the suggestions, belted it, tightened it, swore at it and then loosened it with vice grips. It is very round.
    I first tried with a six sided flare spanner purchased from Germany, but the nut barely touched the sides ( yes it is 9mm).
    In any case I have done the boots and seals and installed the newly refurbished two piece spheres all round that have been sitting on the shelf that Richo supplied some time ago.
    New little boots over the rod and ball bearing joint as well, man that is a bugger to get on.
    Should the wire pin that holds this all together be bent over once installed? One side seems to want to sit half out?
    Pipe currently reinstalled with dud nut, will source some new nuts and either shorten pipe or replace pipe.

    Steve
    Last edited by Big Frog; 1st May 2016 at 08:00 PM.

  21. #21
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Frog View Post
    Thanks for all the input, much appreciated.
    Used a variety of the suggestions, belted it, tightened it, swore at it and then loosened it with vice grips. It is very round.
    I first tried with a six sided flare spanner purchased from Germany, but the nut barely touched the sides ( yes it is 9mm).
    In any case I have done the boots and seals and installed the newly refurbished two piece spheres all round that have been sitting on the shelf that Richo supplied some time ago.
    New little boots over the rod and ball bearing joint as well, man that is a bugger to get on.
    Should the wire pin that holds this all together be bent over once installed? One side seems to want to sit half out?
    Pipe currently reinstalled with dud nut, will source some new nuts and either shorten pipe or replace pipe.

    Steve
    Sounds like you've been having fun

    With the 'wire pin' I just bend the longer arm about 5 degrees to secure.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  22. #22
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    At least the pin came out. If you think you had problems with the flare nut, they are nothing on the problems you would have if that pin was stuck.

    Did you file a smaller hex on the nut? If you tighten it to the proper (low) torque you need only an open end spanner to remove it.

    Roger
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    a surprisingly interesting thread. Glad you got it off without having to resort to the file.

    One thing im wondering is, in 45% silver solder what is in the other 55%?? i had a quick google but no site revealed it, other than "cadium-free"...

    Also, thanks David S I too have now purchased a knippex raptor... looks n sounds very handy!
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    More properly called silver brazing.....

    Silver 45, Copper 27, Zinc 25, Tin 3
    Melting at about 650 C
    Needs clean surfaces, and liberal coating of flux.
    LPG or propane flame torch, with a broad low intensity flame.

    While you can buy flux coated wire, I strongly dislike them, as the flux needs to be on the job, inside the joint before heating, and the wire needs to added only when the joint has reached correct temp.
    So I use a water based paste flux (as readily available), mixed with extra water so I can brush it on to the thoroughly cleaned parts before assembling the joint.

    When heating, don't create hot spots, and don't burn the flux. If the flux goes dark, you need to clean it back to bright metal and start again.

    This brazing alloy runs into close fitting joints very well, has only moderate gap filling, and does not form a fillet. So the joint needs to be designed with a significant area of the 2 parts in close contact.... like a tube and socket joint.
    Traditional bicycle frames were brazed, but the best, high end racing frames were silver brazed. The lower temp of the silver braze is below the critical temp of high spec alloy steels, so they are not adversely affected.

    When using a gas torch, keep the flame well back, play the tip of the flame around the joint to heat it gently and evenly, then when the temp indicating flux goes clear and very liquid, add the filler rod, at the edge of the joint, and it will wick in. For large joints you can draw the liquid braze alloy through the joint by carefully playing the flame around to progress the heated area along, the braze alloy will follow the heat, drawn through the joint by the flux, which gets extruded to the outside.

    It takes practice and patience to learn good technique, but it is well worth it, this is truly the most versatile metal joining process.
    I've been using it for over 40 years, initially for racing bike frames, but more recently for hydraulic fittings, sealing fuel tanks, attaching carbide tips to lathe tools, attaching saucepan handles, ornamental brass, joining bandsaw blades......... Is there anything you can't do with it ?
    Bob
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  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Thanks for the excellent description Bob. I'm feeling quite interested after reading it. Silver brazing needs to added to the list of "skills" I reckon....
    JohnW

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