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  1. #1
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    Default Traction engine advice please

    The B15 has been down on power for a while now & compression test showed F-B 100,60,60,100 psi. I suspected it may be time for a rebuild which is not something I have the money or the desire at the moment to do, but recent thoughts tended towards the head gasket. So today I pulled the head off, my thoughts with what I found are to send the head away for cleanup, valve grind, & crack test. rebuild water pump as it does leak.
    The bores look good to me ( I think if there was a problem with the rings there would be signs to indicate) The head gasket has separated but this is mainly? due to the struggle I had getting the head off. I'd appreciate the advice of those more experienced than me if I'm on the right track with the minimal work I'd like to do. cheers DaveTraction engine advice please-img_1506.jpgTraction engine advice please-img_1510.jpgTraction engine advice please-img_1507.jpgTraction engine advice please-img_1509.jpgTraction engine advice please-img_1511.jpgTraction engine advice please-img_1513.jpg

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Your cylinder barrels appear to have settled on their base gaskets. This was a very common thing to occur. The standard quick fix was to put a pair of figure 8 copper gasket on top of the liners before fitting the head gasket. The only permanent fix is new barrels and pistons of the type specified for ID 19 ( flat top ). These are machined so as to only require a very thin barrel base gasket eliminating the settling characteristic. Obviously the number two and three cylinders are the ones badly down in compression and would indicate that the gasses are blowing by into the water spaces. I am surprised that the sump is not full of water. Were you loosing coolant?
    Another area to look at is the integrity of the exhaust valve sealing. They used to burn the seating faces once the valve guides became worn. This would also explain a compression drop.
    My advice would be to pull the entire engine down and rebuild it properly, with ID connecting rods new water distribution tube new valve guides, valves refaced, new mains and big ends bearings , timing chain, crank shaft seal and new rocker shaft. The rockers can be re-bushed with bronze to suit the new shaft. You could then be sure that it would not need touching again for a long time.
    The expense now would mean a saving of expense and effort again later on! Do it Once and Do it Properly is the best policy!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Thanks for the quick reply Gerry, I'm aware of the settling of the barrels & the problems that creates, are the figure 8 gaskets available to buy or do they have to be specially made? Yes I do have regular but minor coolant loss into the sump ( approx. 5-10 ml at oil change) & it's been like that for many years so not too concerned. My object of this exercise is to get it into serviceable condition for minimal cost. A complete rebuilt is by far the best option result wise but at the moment not the best financially. regards Dave
    Just a duckin' & a weavin'

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Could always sell off the kids if you have any????? Or mortgage the house!
    I do not think that the figure 8 gaskets are available. Everyone tends to go with the newer barrels and they are no longer necessary. You may have to make your own!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Would it be easier to find an ID19 engine to use ...
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    That would work if anyone has a good spare they don't want!
    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Would it be easier to find an ID19 engine to use ...
    Cheers Gerry

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    Would it be easier to find an ID19 engine to use
    So what about the Pallas I have under the house?? can we slot the 23 & 5 speed into it
    Just a duckin' & a weavin'

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Would the "figure eight" gaskets only be something like 4-6 thou shim brass? If so, you could surely DIY them.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfbrick View Post
    Would it be easier to find an ID19 engine to use
    So what about the Pallas I have under the house?? can we slot the 23 & 5 speed into it
    I don't think that would fit..... Would the frail little gearbox and spindly driveshafts handle the raw power of a 2.3 litre engine
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  10. #10
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    just replace the whole shebang, surely we could make it fit.
    Just a duckin' & a weavin'

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    "if anyone had a good spare they don't want" ----
    All very nice but to have an engine sitting plus all the other spares really does cost money to store. I don't want to sound like an old grump but because I get so little financial reward for the parts, I've made the difficult decision to "cull" at least half of the Citroen spares including ID engines and gearboxes. To avoid this, I'd require around $2000 to move them and store them for future use.
    I would have thought that a small brake part (only one of each per car) would have been worth more than $40 but that is as much as I could manage to get. It is difficult to find these unbroken, so they are getting very rare indeed!
    So this thread is a good example of what is going to happen in the not too distant future.
    I told my brother to remove the heads and dump the rest because I just can't afford to keep them any more.
    Michael Paas

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I think the citroen classics club may still have one of the Mel Carey conversion kits to modify the ID19 gearbox to fit into the traction (ie: dash linkages etc). I can't help but think a DS motor and ID gearbox would be a vastly nicer car to drive Obviously not original though!

    seeya
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    I've got a slow leak in the NSF tyre of my blue 605. By the logic above I should be looking at a gearbox swap.

    Shim brass. Sharp knife. Blue Hylomar. New gasket. Job done - enjoy the drive.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    I've got a slow leak in the NSF tyre of my blue 605. By the logic above I should be looking at a gearbox swap.

    Shim brass. Sharp knife. Blue Hylomar. New gasket. Job done - enjoy the drive.
    He was talking about fitting the DS engine/gearbox. To do this, you need the conversion kit for the gearbox selectors etc...
    'Cit' homepage:
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    Quote Originally Posted by IDear View Post
    ... I told my brother to remove the heads and dump the rest because I just can't afford to keep them any more.
    Michael Paas

    The heads are possibly less useful than some of the bottom end parts. Conrods for a Traction conversion were around 90 Euro each last time I looked? So it would be worth removing at least those and also any unworn liners/pistons ... and the list would go on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    ... 605 ...
    There's your problem. Get rid of the roadkill on the grille to begin with.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    The heads are possibly less useful than some of the bottom end parts. Conrods for a Traction conversion were around 90 Euro each last time I looked? So it would be worth removing at least those and also any unworn liners/pistons ... and the list would go on.
    The problem he has is they are big and heavy to store. And worthless to sell ( who is going to pay money for an engine that doesn't have proof of a recent rebuild... I wouldn't .....). As he's found, best case is you'll get pocket change for the entire thing and the purchaser crosses there fingers there is something useful inside that's not worn out.

    Possibly if the engines were fitted to cars that you could drive around, so verify they are in a reasonable working condition. You may then get a small amount for them.

    There best bet if they have to be moved on is offer them out for scrap metal value (which would waste enormous chunks of time with people messing you around). Isn't scrap metal only worth $30 a ton or something crazy at the moment it might be better hanging onto them until the prices improve.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #18
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    Yes, I understand the problem. Scrap iron prices are going nowhere and IO isn't going to stay at it's current spot prices for long, so there will be little reward going the scrap route. The high scrap prices of former years are over and rural scrap is almost uneconomic to collect once again. Better to offer them whole or if Michael and/or John have the time, salvage useful items such as the conrods, flywheels and maybe piston/liner sets if they are any good.

  19. #19
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Yes, I understand the problem. Scrap iron prices are going nowhere and IO isn't going to stay at it's current spot prices for long, so there will be little reward going the scrap route. The high scrap prices of former years are over and rural scrap is almost uneconomic to collect once again. Better to offer them whole or if Michael and/or John have the time, salvage useful items such as the conrods, flywheels and maybe piston/liner sets if they are any good.
    I find them hard to store once dismantled too. You find they get rusty very quickly to the point where they are no good (eg: crankshafts etc). Where as where they stay intact, they tend to happily sit without to much degredation. Brake fluid hydraulic parts seem to be the same. Remove them from the parts cars, and they turn to rusted lumps of junk in a very, very short period of time.

    I don't know what the easy answer is. I know we have a couple of tired DS engines in our shed. There not worth pulling down to check ... but we don't want to chuck them either (if they are tired and blowing smoke when parked up, they aren't going to improve with age).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  20. #20
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Your cylinder barrels appear to have settled on their base gaskets. This was a very common thing to occur. The standard quick fix was to put a pair of figure 8 copper gasket on top of the liners before fitting the head gasket. The only permanent fix is new barrels and pistons of the type specified for ID 19 ( flat top ). These are machined so as to only require a very thin barrel base gasket eliminating the settling characteristic. Obviously the number two and three cylinders are the ones badly down in compression and would indicate that the gasses are blowing by into the water spaces. I am surprised that the sump is not full of water. Were you loosing coolant?
    Another area to look at is the integrity of the exhaust valve sealing. They used to burn the seating faces once the valve guides became worn. This would also explain a compression drop.
    My advice would be to pull the entire engine down and rebuild it properly, with ID connecting rods new water distribution tube new valve guides, valves refaced, new mains and big ends bearings , timing chain, crank shaft seal and new rocker shaft. The rockers can be re-bushed with bronze to suit the new shaft. You could then be sure that it would not need touching again for a long time.
    The expense now would mean a saving of expense and effort again later on! Do it Once and Do it Properly is the best policy!
    Couldn't he just fit new seals under the liners I know, dumb question, but if the bottom end and liners/pistons are ok ........

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #21
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I find them hard to store once dismantled too. You find they get rusty very quickly to the point where they are no good (eg: crankshafts etc). Where as where they stay intact, they tend to happily sit without to much degredation. Brake fluid hydraulic parts seem to be the same. Remove them from the parts cars, and they turn to rusted lumps of junk in a very, very short period of time.

    I don't know what the easy answer is. I know we have a couple of tired DS engines in our shed. There not worth pulling down to check ... but we don't want to chuck them either (if they are tired and blowing smoke when parked up, they aren't going to improve with age).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Are those DS engines 1911 cc? If so there is 360 bucks worth of conrods in them at the previously quoted price!
    I recently gave Roger a complete DS 19 motor ( albeit dismantled) and sadly now he has gone on to other things.
    Cheers Gerry

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Couldn't he just fit new seals under the liners ...

    Yes, of course, but I gather Halfbrick doesn't want go any further down and the state of the big ends and mains could be better left as an unknown. At this point, cutting some thin copper sheet, lapping the valves and refitting the head must seem like an appealing option.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Are those DS engines 1911 cc? If so there is 360 bucks worth of conrods in them at the previously quoted price!
    That was in Euro, not AUD ... Franzose list conrods at 135 Euro each, including the 20% VAT.
    https://www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-D...lben/ANR60006/
    I assume these are the same as what you get in your typical ID19. Early DS19 and maybe some ID is apparently a different, thinner, conrod.
    Last edited by David S; 28th April 2016 at 05:56 PM.

  23. #23
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    No, Dspecial engines... 2.0 litre short stroke. I better hope my fathers traction motor is ok ... 'Cos I gave away my spare motor too

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Yes, of course, but I gather Halfbrick doesn't want go any further down and the state of the big ends and mains could be better left as an unknown. At this point, cutting some thin copper sheet, lapping the valves and refitting the head must seem like an appealing option.



    That was in Euro, not AUD ... Franzose list conrods at 135 Euro each, including the 20% VAT.
    https://www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-D...lben/ANR60006/
    I assume these are the same as what you get in your typical ID19. Early DS19 and maybe some ID is apparently a different, thinner, conrod.
    If they are the original babbitted rods I would be willing to bet that the white metal is breaking up -----------They all do!
    Cheers Gerry

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    That was in Euro, not AUD ... Franzose list conrods at 135 Euro each, including the 20% VAT.
    https://www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-D...lben/ANR60006/
    I assume these are the same as what you get in your typical ID19. Early DS19 and maybe some ID is apparently a different, thinner, conrod.
    Those rods are the early thin webbed rods.
    Cheers Gerry

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