Rear brake pad wear 2CV6
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Thread: Rear brake pad wear 2CV6

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default Rear brake pad wear 2CV6

    How do I check this

    its not easy like a normal disk setup

    Thank you

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    JBN
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    You are correct, its not easy like the front brakes. In the first instance, try to adjust the rear brake shoes as per the Haynes manual. Often one finds that they have never been adjusted and that the adjuster nut has rusted in place.

    If that is the case, you should refurbish the rear brakes. This means removing the rear drums. Whilst you are there, replaced the rear hub bearing. Replace the shoes with new ones. May as well replace the seals in the brake cylinders as well. Get a brake shoe centring device and read Haynes to know how to operate it. The real pain is if the bent washer shims have rusted together as they are needed to provide sufficient friction to hold adjustment.

    If the car seems to be ok, just forget about it. That's what most people do. The front disks do 90% of the braking (if the rear brakes are properly adjusted) and 100% if the rears aren't operating.

    With a 2CV, spend the time keeping the steering in good condition and having good tyres on the front. That gets you out of most situations where others would brake. Momentum is your saviour, try not to brake using the brake pedal, use the gears instead so you are in the right gear.

    Always have a spare accelerator cable in your car. They break. They are easy to replace on the side of the road if you have one. You are cactus if you don't have one. Stopping a 2CV is not a problem, keeping up with the traffic is.

    John

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    John,
    crikey, I thought this myth about A series brakes was rife only in the Northern hemisphere.
    In fact, if the braking system is correctly maintained, the front brakes will contribute just 60% of the total braking effort, with the rear brakes accounting for 40%.
    Our MOT test displays the individual braking effort in kgf, with 150 to 160 usually showing on each front wheel and 100 to 110 on the rears.

    Unfortunately, an A series vehicle can pass our MOT test with its rear brakes working at barely half their full effectiveness. As a result, those poorly maintained rear brakes are the most common reason for folk complaining of brake fade problems when travelling (downhill) in mountainous areas.

    As for fitting the best, or a new, set of tyres on the front, I'll let Michelin deal with that one...
    Find a Michelin Certified Centre near you

    Ken

    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    If the car seems to be ok, just forget about it. That's what most people do. The front disks do 90% of the braking (if the rear brakes are properly adjusted) and 100% if the rears aren't operating.

    With a 2CV, spend the time keeping the steering in good condition and having good tyres on the front. That gets you out of most situations where others would brake. Momentum is your saviour, try not to brake using the brake pedal, use the gears instead so you are in the right gear.


    John
    Last edited by Ken H; 18th April 2016 at 09:14 AM.
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    Indeed, crikey John!

    Get in there... pull the wheels and drums off, see what you have.

    Get them working.

    Having non working rear brakes is the same as having single circuit half working brakes. Definitely not good enough these days.

    My new project 2CV has discs all round, due to fitting GS rear hub assemblies to the 2CV rear arms.... quite easy really.
    Bob
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I'll second that. Get the rear brakes working, especially for downhill work putting an extra 10-20% load on the fronts will push them over the edge and brake fade will appear. While a CX is no 2CV I have had similar problems with non working back brakes on both my CXs. Everything appeared normal until one day we went down a steep, long hill. The rear wheels on a Citroen do more than stop the bumper bar dragging on the ground.
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    I'll second that. Get the rear brakes working, especially for downhill work putting an extra 10-20% load on the fronts will push them over the edge and brake fade will appear. While a CX is no 2CV I have had similar problems with non working back brakes on both my CXs. Everything appeared normal until one day we went down a steep, long hill. The rear wheels on a Citroen do more than stop the bumper bar dragging on the ground.
    Really, in a CX I've never seen a set of worn CX rear pads. Infact I'd betting most 40+ year old CX's are still running around with the unworn rear rotors and pads they left the factory with ............... Maybe if the car has done a lot of towing .... They might have worn down a little.

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    Rear brake pad wear 2CV6-brakes.jpg It's a rego fail here too. They used to test my ancient Landies (whose brakes were actually pretty good)

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    JBN
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    I have never experienced downhill brake fade in a 2CV. Speeding fines, yes. Heaven in a 2CV is the downhills, hell is the uphills. Speeding downhills is putting money in the bank. Slugging uphills is withdrawing that money. Regardless how long the downhill is, engine breaking cuts in after 5,750 rpm when the engine starts to tire. Just lifting the foot off the accelerator allows sufficient air resistance braking.

    Brakes are handy in urban traffic, but a good 2CV driver is looking for opportunities and gaps when the rest of the thumb-in-bum-mind-in-neutral crowd are braking. With 602cc of unleashed fury at hand, reading the traffic and exploiting gaps keeps you away from the dreaded 1st gear and keeps you in the push-pull territory of 2nd and 3rd.

    Brakes are just for a pause when you have had too much fun.

    John

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    A bit like driving an 800 cc Morris Minor. Scream flat out down (say 100 kph, more in neutral) to get enough momentum to hopefully get up the next one. Think of the old Pacific Highway, Cowan to Gosford. In those days Mr Plod knew what you were doing. Now he's just an armed robber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    I have never experienced downhill brake fade in a 2CV. Speeding fines, yes. Heaven in a 2CV is the downhills, hell is the uphills. Speeding downhills is putting money in the bank. Slugging uphills is withdrawing that money. Regardless how long the downhill is, engine breaking cuts in after 5,750 rpm when the engine starts to tire. Just lifting the foot off the accelerator allows sufficient air resistance braking.

    Brakes are handy in urban traffic, but a good 2CV driver is looking for opportunities and gaps when the rest of the thumb-in-bum-mind-in-neutral crowd are braking. With 602cc of unleashed fury at hand, reading the traffic and exploiting gaps keeps you away from the dreaded 1st gear and keeps you in the push-pull territory of 2nd and 3rd.

    Brakes are just for a pause when you have had too much fun.

    John
    That sounds like a recipe for hitting an expensive car in the rear end.... and guess who will be in the wrong!
    Bob
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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    That sounds like a recipe for hitting an expensive car in the rear end.... and guess who will be in the wrong!
    I would probably twiddle the steering wheel before then. Two points that sum up a 2CV:

    1. The first time I drove one, after being duly instructed on the gear shift pattern, I put it into first, let out the clutch and then gasped "shit I put it into 3rd gear!". The owner said "No, that is 1st gear". I ended up buying that car and it is still my daily driver. Gutless.

    2. The first time I had the local mechanic drive it to test the brakes for rego, he was flabbergasted at how well they worked, both in real life and on his deceleration meter. I reckon a 2CV with disc brakes is overbraked for a tare weight of 580kgs.

    I regularly go down both the Bulli Pass and Mt Ousley (Wollongong). With the Bulli Pass I engage 2nd gear to the hairpin, then 3rd gear for the rest of the way. The brakes are just jabbed before a corner/curve to rebalance the car. This gives a similar effect to applying the accelerator through a corner on the flat. Mt Ousley is taken in 3rd to keep it at about the speed limit, braking only if baulked by slower traffic. If both passes had a dedicated cycle lane, I would use that when ascending.

    If ever there was a car where brakes were an afterthought, it has to be the 2CV. If you are in top gear and think you need to brake for a corner, double clutch into 3rd and plant the foot instead. Much more fun and you conserve your momentum.

    Buttercup Bob has the right idea, give the 2CV a GS engine transplant. Then you will need brakes. My licence doesn't have enough points to consider such a thing.

    John

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    You're braver than I thought. Do the coal trucks drive right over you ascending Mt Ousley?

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    JBN
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    It is a race between snails. Like me ascending a steep hill is heavy weather for them as well.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Really, in a CX I've never seen a set of worn CX rear pads. Infact I'd betting most 40+ year old CX's are still running around with the unworn rear rotors and pads they left the factory with ............... Maybe if the car has done a lot of towing .... They might have worn down a little.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I have seen rear pad wear on both my CXs. Both had the early pads fitted and they both had the later brake callipers. The pad material goes over the top of the discs, the first time I was caught out on Bulli pass the unworn material was touching and I effectively had no rear brakes. This led to full blown brake fade such that I had no brakes before the bottom corner. Thank god a CX handles so well, and this was with the family on board.

    Transfer now to 2CVs. JBN is cheating using the gearbox. If the brakes are that good go down the hills in 4th; she'll be right mate. In fact lets do a test, disconnect the rear brakes and do Bulli pass in top gear. I'll bring a bin to pick up the pieces.

    If Citroen went to the trouble of putting rear brakes on the 2CV it is our job to make sure they work as the maker intended. It is a wonderful feeling driving a car with brakes that will handle anything you throw at them with ease.
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    I've seen severe brake fade in a 2CV...

    While doing a survey run for the last Raid... (2012 Mountain Raid), me in my '60 AZ (then with 435cc and single circuit brakes), travelling with another Raider in a Dolly, we came over the Tom Groggin track from Omeo to the Murray Gorge crossing into NSW.
    There was a very long steep descent to Tom Groggin on a very rough winding track.
    When about 2/3rds of the way down, I got a call on the UHF, from the car in sight behind me...... "Sh*t, my brakes are gone...." I called back.."grab the handbrake"... "you are in first gear aren't you?"...........reply, "er.. no.. should I be?"

    So we stopped for a cuppa, while he composed his nerves, the brakes cooled down, and I explained what my Dad had told me in about 1965..... "always go down a hill in the same gear that you would use to go up it!"
    Bob
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    "always go down a hill in the same gear that you would use to go up it!"

    Buttercup is on the money,same in teaching truck drivers, gears to hold you.

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    It goes further than that. Select a gear at the bottom of the hill that you think you can use to get all the way up the hill. And conversely, select a gear at the top that you think you can use to get all the way down. I once drove a tandem drive truck with a Roadranger gearbox (about 15 gears I think it was), carting grain in Canada. On the first trip I had the farmer in the passenger seat, showing me where to go. It was flat country with one big hill. I sized up the hill from the bottom, reckoned I needed to go down 3 gears to get up it, and slowed down so I could change down 3 gears. I did indeed reach the top in that gear. The farmer looked at me and said neither she nor her father had ever managed to reach the top of that hill in that truck fully loaded in a gear that high. When changing gear on a hill you lose control. Going up you also lose momentum. Going down you also gain unwanted momentum.

    Roger
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    The disks are pretty good they are double acting ,

    not single acting for instance like a Falcon ,

    but they are inboard , and shielded a little ,

    they should have included a hole that you can spy the brake linings , (rears)

    with a torch ,

    without taking anything apart

    True , your engine is a very good Brake

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    JBN
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    I have seen rear pad wear on both my CXs. Both had the early pads fitted and they both had the later brake callipers. The pad material goes over the top of the discs, the first time I was caught out on Bulli pass the unworn material was touching and I effectively had no rear brakes. This led to full blown brake fade such that I had no brakes before the bottom corner. Thank god a CX handles so well, and this was with the family on board.

    Transfer now to 2CVs. JBN is cheating using the gearbox. If the brakes are that good go down the hills in 4th; she'll be right mate. In fact lets do a test, disconnect the rear brakes and do Bulli pass in top gear. I'll bring a bin to pick up the pieces.

    If Citroen went to the trouble of putting rear brakes on the 2CV it is our job to make sure they work as the maker intended. It is a wonderful feeling driving a car with brakes that will handle anything you throw at them with ease.
    I had brake fade down the Macquarie Pass in about 1968 in a two speed Powerslide automatic Holden wagon. My first instinct was to put it into low which kept the speed down a bit, but I wished it was a four speed gearbox to get it into a lower gear. I used the handbrake once or twice but generally twiddled the steering wheel and hoped for the best. It had been raining and there was standing water near Albion Park airstrip. I dove back and forth through that hoping to splash water onto the front disks and cool them a bit. It didn't.

    Fortunately, it was a Sunday night close to midnight. Not much traffic. I drove through Wollongong to Bulli and stopped the car by ramming into the garage door (the driveway was uphill so it didn't damage the door much). Fortunately, most of the red lights were technically dark orange varying through pink to light red, so I didn't feel obliged to stop.

    That's why I always use an appropriate gear to check the descent. I would drive more like a truckie, using gears and anticipation rather than brakes. In emergency, my natural instinct is to steer away from danger and accelerate rather than brake. Another good reason to always be in the right gear. In a 2CV, acceleration is gentle at best or non existent if in the wrong gear. In these circumstances, the second accelerator (clutch) should be used. Riding that keeps up the engine revs. Max torque is at 6000 rpm - be there. It is second nature to do roundabout exits and sharp street corners with cruising revs via the right foot and cornering revs via the left, both at the same time. Stops the engine bogging down.

    There is a whole skillset of driving a 2CV that is as different to normal motoring as the 2CV is different to normal cars.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renburg View Post
    The disks are pretty good they are double acting ,

    not single acting for instance like a Falcon ,

    but they are inboard , and shielded a little ,

    they should have included a hole that you can spy the brake linings , (rears)

    with a torch ,

    without taking anything apart

    True , your engine is a very good Brake
    The front disks are shielded a bit, but the fan keeps them cool by blowing air onto them via the corrugated rubber tubes and the split "boomerangs" under the disks. Clever.

    That is a good idea about an inspection hole. I would tend to drill that in the backing plate rather than the drum. That way you can easily check with the wheel attached when you are adjusting the brakes. I might do that when I next overhaul the rear brakes/drum/bearing. It also doesn't change the wheel balance in any way.

    John

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    John,
    perhaps I've been doing it incorrectly, since I've never found reason to abuse the clutch when driving an A series, despite driving them to the exclusion of *almost any other vehicle since 1980?
    Unless the engine in your car is very different to every other late 602 model, peak torque would be at 3,750rpm and peak power at 5,750rpm.
    Also, most 2CV racers I know respect a red line at 6,500rpm, especially during the 24 hour enduro event.

    I learnt to drive (and ride motorbikes) in those days when instructors still hammered in the importance of being in the right gear for each and every situation, to anticipate what might be coming up ahead and also be aware of what might be happening behind you.
    Maybe because of that background, I've found that driving an A series has been just like any of those vehicles I'd driven earlier, apart from being sure that you have a ([email protected]) bit more time available to complete an overtaking manoeuvre.

    Although most of our family holidays were spent camping in France, Spain or Portugal, we did take the rig shown below to the 2CV World Meeting in Switzerland, 1991.
    Climbing the mountain passes en route involved holding the revcounter at midway between peak torque and peak power in whatever gear the gradient dictated, which left enough spare to cope with any awkward uphill hairpin bends, of which there were more than a few...

    Ken
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    somewhere north of Barcelona 1986 by slcchassis, on Flickr







    Quote Originally Posted by JBN View Post
    In a 2CV, acceleration is gentle at best or non existent if in the wrong gear. In these circumstances, the second accelerator (clutch) should be used. Riding that keeps up the engine revs. Max torque is at 6000 rpm - be there. It is second nature to do roundabout exits and sharp street corners with cruising revs via the right foot and cornering revs via the left, both at the same time. Stops the engine bogging down.
    There is a whole skillset of driving a 2CV that is as different to normal motoring as the 2CV is different to normal cars.

    John
    Last edited by Ken H; 20th April 2016 at 01:56 AM.

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    Most of those who aren't from NSW won't appreciate how steep and long the highway down Bulli Pass and Mt Ousley are. (Mt Ousley is the modern replacement for the old pass - it evens the gradient and so makes it very, very long). But driving an underpowered drum-braked car on these spots was normal for the older members.

    Much less esoteric transport than a 2CV needed full use of the gear box and minimal brake - think of the Morris Minor, Austin A30, A model Ford, J van, just about any commercial. These things would run out of brake on a steep suburban street. I once shot down Arden St at Coogee and did a JBN across the bottom! For my licence test the copper made me run a commercial both up and down a steep hill with a stop in the middle. In those days they weren't much interested in whether you used the right or left eyeball in the right mirror.

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    Here's a Youtube run on the Highway down to the Gong. I'd love to be in a 2CV for this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUtcP8SLNes

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    JBN
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    Yep. Double clutch into 2nd at the start of the video. There is a slight rise from the F6 before it drops down making it a natural point to change down. From there it's jabs of the brake for the curves and to stop the engine over revving. The hairpin is the natural place to change up to 3rd (in the Xantia I use the same 2nd gear into 3rd gear sequence on the ZF automatic). Regardless of the car involved, the rest of the journey is in 3rd gear with some braking at Green's Pinch to balance the car and right down the bottom for the right hander.

    I stay away from the Bulli Pass after a spell of wet weather as the odd boulder can find its way onto the road between the hairpin and the summit, naturally when the roads narrows.

    When it comes to revs on a 2CV, I have no idea as it has no rev counter. I also have no idea about speed on the open road as I don't look at the speedo. I find the noise of the engine and the road/traffic conditions give me all the input I need for what speed I should/can do. Coupled with fear and sphincter position, this keeps me out of harm's way. At least I give 100% attention to my driving.


    John

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