citroen D Special -ds21 engine swap question
  • Register
  • Help
Results 1 to 20 of 20
Like Tree4Likes
  • 1 Post By David S
  • 1 Post By addo
  • 2 Post By mberry

Thread: citroen D Special -ds21 engine swap question

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    120

    Default citroen D Special -ds21 engine swap question

    Hi

    Advertisement


    I am getting a ds 21 engine put into a D special-Will the D special radiator be adequate re cooling?

    thanks
    Rob

  2. #2
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robere View Post
    Hi

    I am getting a ds 21 engine put into a D special-Will the D special radiator be adequate re cooling?

    thanks
    Rob
    A very common upgrade fitting 21 barrels and pistons, so should not be an issue with cooling as long as the the radiator is clean and the rest of the cooling system is in good order.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  3. #3
    Tadpole
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    San Isidro
    Posts
    7

    Default

    The engine will fit perfectly! Cooling will not be an issue. All radiators and water pumps are the same.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Big Frog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Somewhere near Mudgee, NSW
    Posts
    327

    Default

    Hi Rob
    If the carbie is different , i.e. change from solex to weber, you will need different parts for the throttle linkage.
    S

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    683

    Default

    Hi Rob,

    Some 1985cc cars only got two row radiator cores from new - in the unlikely event you have one of those (I'd think they were all long gone by now in this country) it should be upgraded to a 3 or 4 row core when moving to a 21.

    Cheers,

    Mark...

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    melbourne
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Hi All
    Thanks very much for your advice.
    Rob

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,670

    Default

    The main difference is that a DS21 installation would have had a crossflow radiator and a separate header tank. The thermostat is also located in the (different) water pump housing rather than the top hose as in the Special. Top hoses are also slightly different. The Special had just a radiator with top and bottom tanks. Someone I know recently did the 21 liners/piston change and has had no trouble with the Special radiator system, but still wants to convert to the DS21 layout.

  8. #8
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Icon3

    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    The main difference is that a DS21 installation would have had a crossflow radiator and a separate header tank. The thermostat is also located in the (different) water pump housing rather than the top hose as in the Special. Top hoses are also slightly different. The Special had just a radiator with top and bottom tanks. Someone I know recently did the 21 liners/piston change and has had no trouble with the Special radiator system, but still wants to convert to the DS21 layout.
    When did that change happen David, I've seen 21's without crossflow and with. I would expect all injection cars to have been fitted with crossflow radiators but it doesn't appear to be the case with carby cars?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,670

    Default

    Yes, fair cop! My error, just assuming late D Special contemporary. You are correct about the pre-EFI cars and Reynolds notes the change was in 1969. I guess the parts book would be more specific.

    Edit: I guess it's also worth keeping in mind that a late D Special produced about the same horsepower as an early 21 (109 vs 108 bhp, both at 5500 rpm), but a fair bit less torque (112 ft.lb at 4000 rpm vs 128 ft.lb at 3000 rpm). That presumably explains why people sometimes complain that fitting a 5 speed from a DS seems to lead to overly frequent top gear changes and also why there was an optional close ratio 5 speed gearbox used on models like the early Super.
    Last edited by David S; 6th April 2016 at 11:17 AM.
    GreenBlood likes this.

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    683

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    The main difference is that a DS21 installation would have had a crossflow radiator and a separate header tank.
    Hi David,

    Pre 1971 model year DS21's all had down flow radiators - not crossflow, however I think they were 3 row cores, not 2 row.

    Cheers,

    Mark...

  11. #11
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    Hi David,

    Pre 1971 model year DS21's all had down flow radiators - not crossflow, however I think they were 3 row cores, not 2 row.

    Cheers,

    Mark...
    This is Le Parisian's '69 DS21BVH Carby, so you are saying it would not have originally had a crossflow radiator?



    mberry's '68 DS21BVH



    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    9,670

    Default

    The parts book shows crossflow for IE from 1969, but also when A/C was fitted. I know of a 1970 carby BVH with a crossflow system, but it's always possible it was retrofitted.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts daffyduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    1,955

    Default

    My Wagon was delivered new in Paris with a two row radiator and aircon. She's a 21. Somewhere along the line she got a cross flow.
    Mixing and matching of parts happened a lot. Even when the cars were almost new. I was there and I saw it. It explains a whole lot about what we see in the cars today.

  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    683

    Default

    Hi David,

    As we've discussed before nothing is cut and dried with these cars and changes.

    I've commented on the long stroke cars with 5 bolt wheels, and the post Sept 69 cars with alloy driveshafts etc. etc. so changes bled over before and after the official cross over points.

    As a general rule only injections and DS23's got the cross-flow radiator, and 21 carby cars got the down flow radiator.

    No cross flow radiators originally fitted to 1969 model year and earlier at all.

    But it seems a lot of our (that is Aussie bound) 1970 and later DS21s got the cross flow radiator but not all...! Perhaps it was a hot climate option...?

    My very original 71 BVH carby car has the cross flow fitted - it has all the correct parts including the fan, relays wiring harness, switch etc. and I've owned the car for 22 years so I have to think it's original.

    Whereas another highly original 1970 BVH donor car I have here has the down flow.

    The cross flow in Phils car is very likely not original but it is a sensible enhancement...!

    My 69 and all other pre 1969 cars I have seen all have the down flow radiator fitted.

    Cheers,

    Mark...

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ongar / England
    Posts
    811

    Default

    What is that red thing in front of the battery next to the radiator? Pre-heater?

    Peter

  16. #16
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badabec View Post
    What is that red thing in front of the battery next to the radiator? Pre-heater?

    Peter
    hahah pre-heater, just what a D needs in Aus, no Peter it's a non standard air horn. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  17. #17
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Don't remind me!
    Posts
    16,609

    Default

    Snap!

    A Stebel Nautilus air horn.
    GreenBlood likes this.

  18. #18
    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Broom
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    This is Le Parisian's '69 DS21BVH Carby, so you are saying it would not have originally had a crossflow radiator?



    mberry's '68 DS21BVH



    Cheers
    Chris
    I confess, I put a crossflow radiator in the 68. I had, as a younger man, cooked my first DS21, which had disastrous consequences. 15 years later when doing the 68 I obviously still hadn't gotten over it. Probably wouldn't do that if I was to do the 68 again.

    I should add, just to confirm Mark's theory about the only consistency, being inconsistency, my 1970 DS21 has a cross flow radiator, and i'm pretty certain that's how it left the factory.
    Last edited by mberry; 7th April 2016 at 09:29 PM.
    GreenBlood and ds21bvh like this.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ongar / England
    Posts
    811

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    hahah pre-heater, just what a D needs in Aus, no Peter it's a non standard air horn. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    Are they loud? Louder than the twin air horns fitted as standard?

    Peter

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! JAJEA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Essendon
    Posts
    647

    Default

    Depends where you are standing when they "go off" Badabec. Reminds me of the day I used my triple trumpet Fiamm air horns that I had just installed on my Fiat 1500 on a sleepy driver some decades ago. He got such a fright that he chased me for miles before he gave up. That must have been before "road rage" was an issue! I very cautiously used them there after notwithstanding that it was a courteous beep as far as I was concerned. (He really must have been in La La land at the time!)

    Regards,

    John


    Quote Originally Posted by badabec View Post
    Are they loud? Louder than the twin air horns fitted as standard?

    Peter

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •