Bill, HRE, your opinion please :)
  • Register
  • Help
Page 1 of 2 12 Last
Results 1 to 25 of 35
Like Tree8Likes

Thread: Bill, HRE, your opinion please :)

  1. #1
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Icon3 Bill, HRE, your opinion please :)

    Bill,
    Have a look through this thread
    Citroen-Forum.nl - Citroën ID/DS - Spanningregelaar ombouwset voor wisselstroomdynamo

    You'll probably need Google translate

    Advertisement


    This appears to be a perfect modification for the Ducellier regulator fitted to the D. From what I can make out this unit fits neatly into the original housing and allows for the dash light in the circuit. It also appears to be suitable for BVH cars.





    The US supplier
    Voltage Regulator

    Ebay
    Alternator Voltage Regulator Universal 12 Volt B Circuit ONE Wire | eBay

    Your thoughts

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Ici.
    Posts
    2,524

    Default

    Are they trying to flog off worn out faulty Chinese pacemakers Chris? No seriously they'll be walking out the door now!

  3. #3
    VIP Sponsor 59 Floride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    It's how I roll...Brisbane
    Posts
    32,906

    Default

    Meh! It's all been done before..


  4. #4
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 59 Floride View Post
    Meh! It's all been done before..
    True, but I've not seen anything that appears to be a straight swap into a D regulator, allowing the dash light and starting on a BVH car. . . currently (hahah pun) the suggested conversion is a Bosch RE55 but it needs several modifications.

    Interested in what Bill has to say

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Mallorca, Spain
    Posts
    435

    Default

    I got me a brand new Hella (5DR 004 243-051) for all of €21.95 from a reputable vendor (not on ebay) which would fit into the Ducellier box except I didn't bother to do it, and whereas my battery was whining, whingeing and constantly trying to kill itself, it is now very happy and healthy.
    I know because I have a volt-ammeter.

    The light, it's only a matter of reading the voltage on the small stud on the alternator and using a small relay/transistor - which will also fit inside the box - to pilot it.

  6. #6
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I got me a brand new Hella (5DR 004 243-051) for all of €21.95 from a reputable vendor (not on ebay) which would fit into the Ducellier box except I didn't bother to do it, and whereas my battery was whining, whingeing and constantly trying to kill itself, it is now very happy and healthy.
    I know because I have a volt-ammeter.

    The light, it's only a matter of reading the voltage on the small stud on the alternator and using a small relay/transistor - which will also fit inside the box - to pilot it.
    Yup, I've seen that conversion too Don. The difference here is that the American unit appears to be a 5 wire all in one solution, no add ons, just solder in place and you have a solid state regulator with dash light, and the ability to be used on a BVH car.

    Bill (Hotrodelectric) has turned in for the night but will give an opinion when he's had a chance to have a good look.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  7. #7
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    Hi all- looks like I'm late to the party once again.

    This regulator isn't much different from John Titus' or Mark Bardenwerper's idea with the Ford regulator inside the original can. The only snag I see is the light trip is nor going to be strong enough for a BVH start circuit. I think you can have a relay from the light circuit to do the start function if you like. The overall hookup is pretty simple, and hiding it inside the can would be a doddle. There is one point that concerns me, and that is the B+ connection. I don't know if that's a battery connection, or an ignition connection. It would seem to me that a battery connection would have the regulator switched on continuously. I'm emailing these guys to find out for sure.

    On the whole, I think it's a terrific idea. Think stable lighting in a far smaller, cheaper package.
    GreenBlood likes this.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  8. #8
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    Alrighty Chris- I've gotten a chance to email them with a couple of questions and clarifications from when I contacted them this morning. I should hear back within a few days.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    18,752

    Default

    If I may interject here?

    Here is Dr Hugo Holden's solution to a dynamo regulator to replace the Lucas RB series units as fitted Triumph TRs.

    It's an elegant and straightforward approach and equally applicable to Citroen regulators.

    And the cost saving of doing the work yourself should be considerable.

    http://www.worldphaco.net/uploads/LU..._REGULATOR.pdf
    JohnW and Hotrodelectric like this.

  10. #10
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Alrighty Chris- I've gotten a chance to email them with a couple of questions and clarifications from when I contacted them this morning. I should hear back within a few days.
    Thanks Bill,
    This info is more for others as I have opted for a 100amp alternator with internal regulator. Although who knows one day I may have a BVH in the stable haha.

    Just a couple of points, in the above NL link it describes B+ as connecting to BOB on the 'can' so I presume that means ignition switched?
    This appears to be the same set-up by Delco - if brand names mean anything.
    Part # D7024 - Conversion Voltage Regulator 12 Volt, B-Circuit, 14.2 Voltage set point. For: Universal Design

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  11. #11
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Thanks Bill,
    This info is more for others as I have opted for a 100amp alternator with internal regulator. Although who knows one day I may have a BVH in the stable haha.

    Just a couple of points, in the above NL link it describes B+ as connecting to BOB on the 'can' so I presume that means ignition switched?
    This appears to be the same set-up by Delco - if brand names mean anything.
    Part # D7024 - Conversion Voltage Regulator 12 Volt, B-Circuit, 14.2 Voltage set point. For: Universal Design

    Cheers
    Chris
    I'm betting the rent it is ignition switched. B+ doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but the quick and dirty diagram they show on the website says "B+", which to me means battey continuous. I'll go have a look at the one you link. It's probably basically the same thing, looking at the description.

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    If I may interject here?

    Here is Dr Hugo Holden's solution to a dynamo regulator to replace the Lucas RB series units as fitted Triumph TRs.

    It's an elegant and straightforward approach and equally applicable to Citroen regulators.

    And the cost saving of doing the work yourself should be considerable.

    http://www.worldphaco.net/uploads/LU..._REGULATOR.pdf
    I was wondering when you were going to show up

    I'll go have a look at that one too. You ain't far wrong. DIY on something that comparatively easy saves a lot of money. Even better if this one is already available for you guys like the original Ford-in-the-can solution was for us.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  12. #12
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    This appears to be the same set-up by Delco - if brand names mean anything.
    That looks like the exact same one. I know the seller- he's a bit on the expensive side, but the stuff is good. I think 50.00 US a little high, but then I think of the cost for an NOS Ducellier or Paris Rhone regulator. All of a sudden, that 50.00 looks positively cheap.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  13. #13
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    [COLOR=#333333]

    That looks like the exact same one. I know the seller- he's a bit on the expensive side, but the stuff is good. I think 50.00 US a little high, but then I think of the cost for an NOS Ducellier or Paris Rhone regulator. All of a sudden, that 50.00 looks positively cheap.
    There are a number of posts on OS forums where the fail rate of NOS and rebuilt Ducellier/Paris Rhone regulators makes them a lottery with a short fuse. . .

    Getting a solid state external unit that hides inside the 'original' box, and is an easy installation for the layman is proving to be the challenge. Rob's link had my head spinning, for those with the knowledge required it probably is a thing of beauty but no way I could put it together (and would it fit inside the original box. . .)

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  14. #14
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    If I may interject here?

    Here is Dr Hugo Holden's solution to a dynamo regulator to replace the Lucas RB series units as fitted Triumph TRs.

    It's an elegant and straightforward approach and equally applicable to Citroen regulators.

    And the cost saving of doing the work yourself should be considerable.

    http://www.worldphaco.net/uploads/LU..._REGULATOR.pdf
    I had a quick look at your find. At first, it mentioned TR4, so I'm immediately thinking "positive ground". Wrong there, so I had a look at the hookup diagram. Come to find out that it's for a generator, not an alternator. Damn elegant solution though. Quite useful on the pre-'66 cars. I'll understand it better once I read the entire article.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  15. #15
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    10,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    I had a quick look at your find. At first, it mentioned TR4, so I'm immediately thinking "positive ground". Wrong there, so I had a look at the hookup diagram. Come to find out that it's for a generator, not an alternator. Damn elegant solution though. Quite useful on the pre-'66 cars. I'll understand it better once I read the entire article.
    Elegant indeed. Top end Bosch quality, that item. Almost wants me to get a 12V car with a generator. Almost........
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    Citroën CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  16. #16
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    18,752

    Default

    Come to find out that it's for a generator
    To be 100% correct both Alternators and dynamos are generators. Ie they generate electricity.

    I know it's subtle difference. But old timers will always refer to " auto generators" as dynamos. I had this terminology implanted into me, by the then Chief Engineer or Jo Lucas Australia, A mate of my brothers. In fact I did holiday work experience at the Chelterham Plant courtesy of the connection.

  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger!
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    .... I had this terminology implanted into me, by the then Chief Engineer or Jo Lucas Australia, A mate of my brothers. In fact I did holiday work experience at the Chelterham Plant courtesy of the connection.
    Wow you know the "Prince of Darkness" personally

    Seriously that would have been a very interesting experience
    Peter
    1950 11BL
    1970 AZUA "La Poste" van
    1986 2CV Dolly (red and white)
    2004 C5 HDi silver 2.0L

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Melbourne / Caulfield
    Posts
    18,752

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter O View Post
    Wow you know the "Prince of Darkness" personally

    Seriously that would have been a very interesting experience
    Actually it was very interesting. With CE's insight I learnt all about the issues of putting design into a production line. And saw examples of workers stuffing up assembly in every possible way. And the problem solving to make assembly idiot proof. A primer in production engineering if you will.

    Also how engineering design is compromised by penny pinching a few cents by not putting field diodes in a plastic support with some epoxy. But accountants will be accountants. This design fault end up costing Lucas the Toyota and GMH contracts. Because the alternators were failing just after warranty expired.

    Engineering proving dept knew of the fault and the fix but the implementation was refused by the bean counters. Because the product was on contracted price to the car manufacturers.

    I also saw Lucas engineers implement the plastic battery line. Which was a 100% Australian designed and built product.

    It was an interesting workplace with a smattering of Poms and Australians in management and the workforce.

    And the (covert) destructive tests of Bosch and Nippon Denso products and the analysis of the failure modes. This is where I developed my respect for ND products which easily outlasted any other product by a factor 5.
    Dano likes this.

  19. #19
    Fellow Frogger! JAJEA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Essendon
    Posts
    648

    Default

    Ahh Nippon Denso is a name that I never heard of in OZ until I worked on the Toyota Crown line in AMI Port Melbourne (in between Uni years or was it post uni awaiting an engineering job?) some 45 years ago. Everything electrical was Nippon Denso!

    John

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Actually it was very interesting. With CE's insight I learnt all about the issues of putting design into a production line. And saw examples of workers stuffing up assembly in every possible way. And the problem solving to make assembly idiot proof. A primer in production engineering if you will.

    Also how engineering design is compromised by penny pinching a few cents by not putting field diodes in a plastic support with some epoxy. But accountants will be accountants. This design fault end up costing Lucas the Toyota and GMH contracts. Because the alternators were failing just after warranty expired.

    Engineering proving dept knew of the fault and the fix but the implementation was refused by the bean counters. Because the product was on contracted price to the car manufacturers.

    I also saw Lucas engineers implement the plastic battery line. Which was a 100% Australian designed and built product.

    It was an interesting workplace with a smattering of Poms and Australians in management and the workforce.

    And the (covert) destructive tests of Bosch and Nippon Denso products and the analysis of the failure modes. This is where I developed my respect for ND products which easily outlasted any other product by a factor 5.

  20. #20
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    To be 100% correct both Alternators and dynamos are generators. Ie they generate electricity.

    I know it's subtle difference. But old timers will always refer to " auto generators" as dynamos. I had this terminology implanted into me, by the then Chief Engineer or Jo Lucas Australia, A mate of my brothers. In fact I did holiday work experience at the Chelterham Plant courtesy of the connection.
    Point conceded. Here we see them as generators and alternators.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  21. #21
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    10,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Point conceded. Here we see them as generators and alternators.
    Me too, all my adult life. Then there's the "really old" old-timer's "dynamo", which I'd always used for my bicycle.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    Citroën CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  22. #22
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    OK, getting back to the question I posed for the seller.

    The B+ wire does go direct to battery. That means a couple of things: 1) That is a volt sense lead. 2)The light wire is what controls the regulator. Going further, you MUSm without fail ensure the charge lamp circuit works, or else you will not charge. This depends on differentiation between the either side of the charge lamp to work. Checking is simple. Merely touch the factory light wire- the one sleeved in red- at the regulator to ground and see if the lamp works.

    Hookup is simple past that. The field wire goes to where the yellow sleeved wire is. The one marked "Ps" will go to the post with the white sleeved wire. The "BOB" wire- 6.3mm spade in purple- is disconnected and folded away. You can use this one to trip a small ignition on circuit. The black wire is ground. Ensure that ground is solid. All the years of rust, corrosion and dirt at the battery holddown is bad ju-ju.

    I hadn't thought about it much, but with this regulator you won't have easy access to a switched ground for the starter anti-repeat on a BVH car.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  23. #23
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Perth, WA, Australia
    Posts
    10,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Actually it was very interesting. With CE's insight I learnt all about the issues of putting design into a production line. And saw examples of workers stuffing up assembly in every possible way. And the problem solving to make assembly idiot proof. A primer in production engineering if you will.

    Also how engineering design is compromised by penny pinching a few cents by not putting field diodes in a plastic support with some epoxy. But accountants will be accountants. This design fault end up costing Lucas the Toyota and GMH contracts. Because the alternators were failing just after warranty expired.

    Engineering proving dept knew of the fault and the fix but the implementation was refused by the bean counters. Because the product was on contracted price to the car manufacturers.

    I also saw Lucas engineers implement the plastic battery line. Which was a 100% Australian designed and built product.

    It was an interesting workplace with a smattering of Poms and Australians in management and the workforce.

    And the (covert) destructive tests of Bosch and Nippon Denso products and the analysis of the failure modes. This is where I developed my respect for ND products which easily outlasted any other product by a factor 5.
    Really interesting, thanks. Somewhere out there there's a really good article on the decline of Lucas quality, of which your description is a simple, individual example. Lose customer respect and...... Pity they couldn't put the destructive test results to good use.
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    Citroën CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

  24. #24
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California, USA
    Posts
    3,509

    Default

    Everything electrical was Nippon Denso!
    Yah, Denso is still a high profile name for electrical stuff. I see it in one form or another on virtually every Japanese car I have ever seen.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  25. #25
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brisbane
    Posts
    8,159

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post

    I hadn't thought about it much, but with this regulator you won't have easy access to a switched ground for the starter anti-repeat on a BVH car.
    hmmm, "Are we there yet, are we there yet. . . "

    Seems not, is there a simple workaround for the anti repeat on BVH cars?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

Page 1 of 2 12 Last

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •