Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.
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Thread: Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.

  1. #1
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Default Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.

    I wonder how well I'll be able to break this











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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hi Shane,
    Would you like to tell us what is so special about this? It looks like a manual trans/axle. A crunch box.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Does this mean that you have finally got stuck into the TA box of your Dad's 11BL?
    George, this is why this box is so special!
    Shane; Sing out if you need any help!
    Cheers Gerry

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh .... belongs to this.





    It's out of my fathers traction. I've been itching to drive this car for about 15years, but it's always had a noise in the gearbox, so we have never been game enough to use it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Yaaaaaay! About Time!
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    A friend of mine restored one of those many years ago. He let me have a drive of it. He had fully restored the car , the engine, everything. It was a truely HORRIBLE experience. No synchro in any gear. You had to double clutch it, it was just no fun at all. I'd be taking those cogs out and replacing them with something user friendly.
    Something at least with synchro mesh.

  7. #7
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    A friend of mine restored one of those many years ago. He let me have a drive of it. He had fully restored the car , the engine, everything. It was a truely HORRIBLE experience. No synchro in any gear. You had to double clutch it, it was just no fun at all. I'd be taking those cogs out and replacing them with something user friendly.
    Something at least with synchro mesh.
    You sound like my father. The way they drive is the appeal. I enjoy trying to get double clutching right .... you forgot to mention the heavy steering, pathetic steering lock and drum brakes. It's all lots of fun
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    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    A friend of mine restored one of those many years ago. He let me have a drive of it. He had fully restored the car , the engine, everything. It was a truely HORRIBLE experience. No synchro in any gear. You had to double clutch it, it was just no fun at all. I'd be taking those cogs out and replacing them with something user friendly.
    Something at least with synchro mesh.
    George you don't know what you are talking about. They are synchro on 2nd and 3rd. and only non synchro on 1st!
    Have a look at Shanes pictures and you can see the synchro drum on the main shaft in between the 2nd and top gear pinions.
    If your friends resto was a horrible experience maybe he did what a lot of people used to do and just prettied it up with out doing a proper job on the parts that really count!
    I have driven pretty looking tractions that are horrible to drive simply because the approach I outlined was employed. My theory would be to do it all again and to do it properly!
    Cheers Gerry

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    George if you can't drive a crash gearbox with ease you need your license endorsed, like the modern auto girlies! NOT HORRIBLE. With practice it becomes easy.

    I learned on an ALL gear crash box, and when I was successful the old man reckoned I still couldn't drive properly because there wasn't a manual advance. Needless to say he learned on something not far removed from a horseless carriage.
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I thought you were talking about the CX wagon. We really need a gallery of all of your collection, inside the shed and outside please.
    Mine

    CX Prestige
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    In the family

    Xantia SX

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    George if you can't drive a crash gearbox with ease you need your license endorsed, like the modern auto girlies! NOT HORRIBLE. With practice it becomes easy.

    I learned on an ALL gear crash box, and when I was successful the old man reckoned I still couldn't drive properly because there wasn't a manual advance. Needless to say he learned on something not far removed from a horseless carriage.
    What is it that you people do not understand about synchro on 2nd and 3rd?
    Cheers Gerry

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    But I do understand. I can see the synchro. It's a half-girlie car; there are 1st and 2nd to master. In other prewar vehicles there might be 3 or 4 as well.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    The only time one needs to double clutch is changing from 2nd back into first whilst on the move. Thankfully this is never really needed as 2nd is a good strong gear and can haul away from very low speeds. BTW have you ever needed to drive a D with a broken clutch cable? One starts the car with 1st engaged and then it is rev matching to accomplish all changes from then on once moving!
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    Cheers Gerry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    I thought you were talking about the CX wagon. We really need a gallery of all of your collection, inside the shed and outside please.
    You have just listed all he cars that aren't mine... Mine are the worthless crap. The good ones are other peoples, the traction is my fathers, the 2cv is my mothers, the CX wagon is owned by someone down in Melbourne. The battered crap is mine

    Those 3 cars are way too nice for me to own.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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  15. #15
    JBN
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    I had the synchros removed from an MG TF. Actually, they just ground off the spiky bits to leave a nice brass ring as a spacer. Much quicker changing gears in a crash box than gears where the synchro is stuffed.

    I always double clutch changing down in the 2CV as I can do it at higher revs so it is in 2nd gear for corners. To preserve the revs on corners when turning into another road, I declutch the gearbox halfway through and let the clutch out as I am accelerating.

    Kind of a Fred Upstairs dance step playing those two pedals in concert.

    John

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    Fellow Frogger! Trading Estate's Avatar
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    Defence of Traction alert!
    Heavy steering - yes at parking speeds but perfect at speed. can out handle most cars of the 60's and seventies. Brakes are big and if properly adjusted are fine. You can get through those gears pretty quickly when you get used to it. Got keep that heavy flywheel spinning. They get along fine. Only complaint is the low top gear / and freeways ! ( earmuffs might help) Thats why the four speed conversion was so popular. You should do one for your dad!
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    A 10x31 crown and pinion addresses the cruising speed issues. It is however a hefty investment and some engine mods would help to improve the performance so that the gear flexibility is not lost. Ask Rob Little what he has done to his Big 15 engine.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Nice replies guys, in my defense I'd forgotten that the lack of synch was only between 1st and 2nd. But it was in about 1977 that Tim registered the car after fully restoring it. That's when I last drove it. That's a darn long time ago.
    Tim had FULLY restored everything, the car was showroom condition when he finished it. He personally fixed and re-engineered everything. He even had the white walled tyres. And it was the same colour as Shane's dad's car. He personally re-upholstered it too, he had his own industrial sewing machine. He also spray painted it.
    I don't give a crap about having FUN trying to match the speed of the cogs. I'm not a psychic. It just didn't work for me. And you're right Shane, the steering was more like a truck, and the brakes were only just able to pull it up.
    We take so many improvements for granted. They are called IMPROVEMENTS for a reason.
    So having an all synchro box makes it a 'girlie' thing? that's amazing. While it's true that my grandmother could have mastered the art of driving a 'crunch box', she and her brothers had no option. I just thought it was really annoying, and it really was the only thing that let the car down.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    If you fit the original riveted brake linings and properly centralise the shoes to the drums the brakes are excellent. The problem today is that people opt for bonded linings that are way too hard. My original 53 light 15 I had in 1966 was able to pull to a dead halt from 35MPH in 30 feet. They were always noted for having superior brakes to most other motor cars of the day. Sure pedal pressures are higher because the system is unassisted but highly effective in any case.
    OMG white wall tyres?? How crass!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Oh .... belongs to this.





    It's out of my fathers traction. I've been itching to drive this car for about 15years, but it's always had a noise in the gearbox, so we have never been game enough to use it.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    NICE LOOKING CAR Shane! Hope you will fix it soon!
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    If you fit the original riveted brake linings and properly centralise the shoes to the drums the brakes are excellent. The problem today is that people opt for bonded linings that are way too hard. My original 53 light 15 I had in 1966 was able to pull to a dead halt from 35MPH in 30 feet. They were always noted for having superior brakes to most other motor cars of the day. Sure pedal pressures are higher because the system is unassisted but highly effective in any case.
    OMG white wall tyres?? How crass!
    Gerry, you have to be kidding. Crass? It looked spectacular. They cost him a small fortune. They looked spectacular on the fully restored car.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    If you fit the original riveted brake lining ...
    Asbestos linings??? Possibly, later materials are simply harder due to the deletion of asbestos and require more pressure to give a similar effect. Why would being a bonded lining or not be significant? It would most likely be down to the pad material.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Yes definitely asbestos linings, but that is what they were designed for!
    As for white wall tyres they are synonymous with the American hot rod scene! Then there is no accounting for peoples taste.
    Back to the thread----- Shane I am eager to see just how the rebuild of the gearbox goes and what a difference it makes to the car.
    People can make rubbish comments about Tractions as much as they like. It does not change the fact that they are one of the great cars of Automobile history and had as much influence as did the DS albeit 21 years earlier.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Yes definitely asbestos linings, but that is what they were designed for!
    As for white wall tyres they are synonymous with the American hot rod scene! Then there is no accounting for peoples taste.
    Back to the thread----- Shane I am eager to see just how the rebuild of the gearbox goes and what a difference it makes to the car.
    People can make rubbish comments about Tractions as much as they like. It does not change the fact that they are one of the great cars of Automobile history and had as much influence as did the DS albeit 21 years earlier.
    Soon, I just need to get the car I'm driving back together. The most obvious faults are the gear missing teeth ( photographed ) and considerable slop in the reverse idler gear.
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  25. #25
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    You will also need to reset the C W and P once it has been disturbed. It is necessary to remove the Diff in order to extract the main shaft. Whilst the pinion and main shafts are out it is good to replace the double row front bearings. Replacements are 3305s and used to be very commonly available from local bearing service shops. The rear pinion bearing is a little harder but being a roller bearing give very little trouble. The very hard bearing to source is the Thrust bearing on the pinion shaft between second fixed pinion and the first/ reverse cluster gear. The reverse idler may not be as critical as you may think The bronze bush ids by design a loose fit to allow lubrication and the ball thrusts at each end can be refurbished merely by reversing the thrust rings to eliminate excessive end play!
    Of critical importance is the condition of the half locking rings and if too far gone to be cleaned up by lapping must be replaced. This will definitely involve re-shimming the adjustments for conical depth of the pinion!
    Cheers Gerry

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