Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox. - Page 3
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Thread: Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.

  1. #51
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    A Couple of points!
    Do you have the dowel key that goes in between the splines on the mainshaft to peg the thrust washers for the second and third idlers?
    I have a selection of "Celeron" washers to choose from when setting the end play of the mainshaft gears.
    Once the pinion shaft has been disturbed it will need to be reset with shims. It is NEVER good enough to just put it back with the same shims as came out.
    I also have a large selection of spare pinion shaft shims to choose from!
    Do not use paper gaskets to seal the front bearing carrier to the gearbox case! Use Silastic 732 RTV or similar instead! Paper gaskets squash and mess up the pinion depth setting.
    Front bearings are 3305 s and are fairly common. They are not split row as per the original but that is not important.
    Do not under any circumstances use the bend over star washer to lock up the pinion nut in front of the 3305 bearing. Use Loctite instead.
    I have a tool to turn the ring nut adjusters of the Timken tapered roller bearings for the diff/crown wheel assembly. It is a bit roughly made but works well enough!
    Now there is some stuff for me to digest ... I haven't seen any dowel keys at all. I'll need to see if it's still sitting in place. It appears 3305 bearing is still readily available. you would buy it from the local bearing store, not ebay though

    SKF 3305 A C3 Double ROW Ball Bearing | eBay

    Why don't I use that bend over star washer? I'm glad you mentioned don't use gaskets as I'd probably have sourced/cut new ones.

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  2. #52
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    They used to be really cheap at the bearing services. But I have not bought any for about 10 years, so that may have changed. At least the Ebay is a Buy it now price and the added advantage is that they are SKF. I would say go for it!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 25th April 2016 at 01:42 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    This is fascinating. Many thanks, as usual, to all.
    JohnW

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  4. #54
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Now that's interesting. The gearbox bushes are very cheap. There is the celeron washers Gerry speaks of too (google celeron washers and nothing comes back). If you google "celeron washers shim", you get this thread on this forum returned.

    Gearbox pinions, shafts and forks Products CitroŽn Traction Avant

    But those gears

    Gerry, those gears of yours here... They are worth $400+ each

    seeya,
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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  5. #55
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Very interesting. For my benefit as a traction gearbox ignoramus, why use Celeron?
    JohnW

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  6. #56
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    Very interesting. For my benefit as a traction gearbox ignoramus, why use Celeron?
    I did google "what is it" ... Merrem Materials - Hard fabric, celoron, canevasit

    fabric ... would you believe.

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  7. #57
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Yes, timing gears look like fabric impregnated with some sort of 1930s-40s resin product and then machined up. They're Celeron I think.

    It was used for the top thrust washers on Renault 750 kingpins too, I think. I presume in a gearbox the idea is that it wears in preference to other things. But usually it is all steel shims and bronze.

    Seems odd, but it works.

    Cheers
    JohnW

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    There is a major fault with Tractions gearboxes that Gerry may be able to explain better than me. But one of CCOCA's members, Bernie Hadaway ( also recently deceased ) had observed that one of the gears ( second I think ) has a sharp edge when being cut which was a modification by Citroen engineers made on the assembly line - but this undercut creates a stress point and eventually creates a weak point. Bernie had a solution which added another bronze bearing to this area which solved the design problem. I will try and find this article from CCOCA records and post it here. With the gearbox apart it would be worth considering the modification. There is also the Jack weaver strengthening plate which can be fitted internally to stop the gearbox casing cracking from within. Details of these are still available.

    Over to Gerry for his thought.
    Hawk
    (Ted Cross)

  9. #59
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    Now that's interesting. The gearbox bushes are very cheap. There is the celeron washers Gerry speaks of too (google celeron washers and nothing comes back). If you google "celeron washers shim", you get this thread on this forum returned.

    Gearbox pinions, shafts and forks Products CitroŽn Traction Avant

    But those gears

    Gerry, those gears of yours here... They are worth $400+ each

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    That is for newly manufactured gears!
    Cheers Gerry

  10. #60
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I did google "what is it" ... Merrem Materials - Hard fabric, celoron, canevasit

    fabric ... would you believe.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Resin impregnated fabric ---very durable and excellent lubricity!
    Cheers Gerry

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawk View Post
    There is a major fault with Tractions gearboxes that Gerry may be able to explain better than me. But one of CCOCA's members, Bernie Hadaway ( also recently deceased ) had observed that one of the gears ( second I think ) has a sharp edge when being cut which was a modification by Citroen engineers made on the assembly line - but this undercut creates a stress point and eventually creates a weak point. Bernie had a solution which added another bronze bearing to this area which solved the design problem. I will try and find this article from CCOCA records and post it here. With the gearbox apart it would be worth considering the modification. There is also the Jack weaver strengthening plate which can be fitted internally to stop the gearbox casing cracking from within. Details of these are still available.

    Over to Gerry for his thought.
    Hawk
    (Ted Cross)
    The gears were machined with a point lead for the first /reverse sliding pinion and its matching engaging gears. It slowly becomes rounded as people clash the gears when engaging. The dog clutches on second and third idler pinions are also cut with a pointed lead to allow the splines of the synchro outer hub to lock over and engage. The break in Shanes box is very unusual as it is usually the second/reverse idler cluster on the mainshaft that breaks. It does this as of the tow sets of gears that are constantly engaged it is the smaller and therefore more highly loaded. The other factor at work is the fact that inside this cluster are two bronze bushes pressed in the bore from either end. These do not meet in the centre of the gear in order to form an oil well. Unfortunately they are prone to moving with age to close the center oil well space. This means that the gear is supported on the shaft incorrectly and can then wobble out of concentricity in relation to the mainshaft. The gear can then load up out of contact with the full face of its engaging pinion shaft gear. Point loadings and high stress occur under a shock load from the driven wheels ( ie hitting a pothole under power in second gear ) and the tooth breaks off.
    It is a situation easy to rectify. Either fit new gear bushes and Loctite them in place or modify the floating bush from the pinion shaft to make a single piece bush for the second/reverse idler. It too can be loctited in and the oil supply holes drilled for lubrication. This one piece bush needs the be reduced on the OD to fit and then cut to length to match the second/reverse idler gear.
    Ted I think that Bernie was 'Tilting at Windmills' with his theory.
    As for the strengthening plate-----if you are going to race it OK but a properly built box is very strong with out it. The plate fixed to an improperly built box may save the case from splitting but the damage can still happen to the gears.
    Of most importance is pinion shaft depth setting and assembly integrity. Throw away the multi tab washer from behind the pinion nut and ensure that the C locking rings are unmarked on the side that bears on the splines of the pinion shaft. If one side of these is worn it is permissible to turn them around the other way so that the unworn side is now providing accurate lock up when the assembly is tightened.
    Cheers Gerry

  12. #62
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I'll strip the reverse/idler cluster off as soon as I have time. There IS slop there. It will be interesting to see if the bushes have moved out of position. I'll order in new bushes once I have them out (to verify the bush size, I notice the website above sells oversize bushes, machining of the bush area must be possible).

    The only very obvious slop in this gearbox is the twin bushes mention above and the reverse idler shaft. I imagine the reverse idler will need shimming as opposed to a new bush though. I haven't looked closely to verify. Given the bushes are so modestly priced, it would be craziness not to replace them if there is evidence of wear.

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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Resin impregnated fabric ---very durable and excellent lubricity!
    It's not an intuitive combination is it? But it surely works. Timing gears can last the best part of 100,000 km plus with suitable oil changes - mine in the 1951 4CV was new in 1970, at least 100,000 km ago. I've not seen it in a gearbox before, but I have led a sheltered life with the Renault transaxles. That TA gearbox is quite a sophisticated piece of work I reckon.
    JohnW

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnW View Post
    It's not an intuitive combination is it? But it surely works. Timing gears can last the best part of 100,000 km plus with suitable oil changes - mine in the 1951 4CV was new in 1970, at least 100,000 km ago. I've not seen it in a gearbox before, but I have led a sheltered life with the Renault transaxles. That TA gearbox is quite a sophisticated piece of work I reckon.
    Yes Not a bad box seeing as legend has it that it was designed and built in 30 days once the Sensaud De Lavaud auto trans proved unworkable!
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    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I'll strip the reverse/idler cluster off as soon as I have time. There IS slop there. It will be interesting to see if the bushes have moved out of position. I'll order in new bushes once I have them out (to verify the bush size, I notice the website above sells oversize bushes, machining of the bush area must be possible).

    The only very obvious slop in this gearbox is the twin bushes mention above and the reverse idler shaft. I imagine the reverse idler will need shimming as opposed to a new bush though. I haven't looked closely to verify. Given the bushes are so modestly priced, it would be craziness not to replace them if there is evidence of wear.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    The reverse idler end thrust bearings are supported by that bit of casing that is broken off! Are you sure you do not wish to use my spare casing? After all the stuff you have done for me and my CX there would be no charge for the parts!!!!! I am happy to donate them to a worthwhile cause like your TA.
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    Cheers Gerry

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    Gerry that is a very generous offer on your part and I would urge Shane to take it up.
    I recently saw a gearbox that had been rebuilt by a gearbox specialist (not Citroen) where the bush had turned in the 2/3 gear, thus cutting of the oil supply and as a result blew the bottom out of the box. I can't read a word of this post: Modifikation 2. Gangrad Traction Avant Getriebe but the pictures tell the story and I believe it would be a worthwhile modification. Shane you might save a dollar here Gearbox: Gears . These people are reliable and easy to deal with.
    Cheers AllenM

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    Default Traction gearbox. Translation of German text

    Have translated the big block of text on this link. Please forgive me if my technical German is not wholly up to scratch.

    "
    The second gear wheel in the Traction gearbox has driven many to distraction, myself also.

    In a rebuild of the gearbox, according to the handbook, the 2nd gear should be replaced if its inner is conical/tapered. This is most of them. Both bronze bushes are pressed in and there is a space between them to hold lubricant. If conical/tapered the smaller of the bushes can butt up against the larger, blocking the oil hole, the bush wears out quickly and one is on the slippery slope. Everything has to start again from the start - box out and dismantle.

    One of my predecessors had solved this problem with a one piece bush. This had then rotated and blocked the oil hole. Another had then tried the original solution with the same result.

    I've chosen a simple and safe solution for this.

    A small distance ring protects the oil supply permanently. The bushes can neither push up against each other nor rotate and block the oil hole because of a spiral lubrication groove on the outside.

    Incidentally: I have made the bronze bushes with the counterthreaded lubrication groove out of tough bronze. There used to be smart-arses who used unsuitable alloys or even brass as bearing material. In addition I also ground out the second gear wheel to be truly cylindrical.

    Overkill is better."

    Best Wishes

    Andrew



    Quote Originally Posted by AllenM View Post
    Gerry that is a very generous offer on your part and I would urge Shane to take it up.
    I recently saw a gearbox that had been rebuilt by a gearbox specialist (not Citroen) where the bush had turned in the 2/3 gear, thus cutting of the oil supply and as a result blew the bottom out of the box. I can't read a word of this post: Modifikation 2. Gangrad Traction Avant Getriebe but the pictures tell the story and I believe it would be a worthwhile modification. Shane you might save a dollar here Gearbox: Gears . These people are reliable and easy to deal with.
    Cheers AllenM

  18. #68
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Andrew. Phosphor bronze bushes are the only way to go. As I have said I modify the floating bush from the lower ( pinion ) shaft. A small groove cut in the OD in line with the oil supply holes makes sure that the oil holes can never block if the bush does happen to rotate. The original style bushes if Loctited will never move. The information in the workshop manual about reclaiming second gear pinions can be ignored as it is overly pedantic!

    http://www.tractionavant.ch/Berichte...ation2Gang.php

    The solution here is also brilliant. Shane you have a lathe!
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 27th April 2016 at 10:28 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

  19. #69
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    Ok, the last bit to come off...



    I'm glad I have a manual here... I would have tried to tap that through/out with a punch and hammer. Manual says "push in with a screwdriver so you can rotate the collar".





    Gee's how lucky am I .... That didn't shoot across the shed ... Usually I find the spring loaded stuff by the sounds of the bits bouncing off the shed walls.




    The gear just lifts off ... and look at that, yet again, Gerry is correct. See the shiny bronze rather than a dark oil feed hole.





    The front bush has moved.







    I really don't see the wear that is being spoken off






    This looks really poorly cast at the factory, with one corner broken away. I'd have thought it fine given there is a shim beside it to spread out load The load of the gears will only ever push the shaft towards the out case, not suck in in against the open front



    So I'll order in two new bushes.... And fabricate one of these out of a section of one of the worn bushes as suggested by Gerry.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180590.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180589.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180588.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180587.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180586.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180585.jpg  

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    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180578.jpg  
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  20. #70
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    I have never seen a case broken at that point before Shane. There is really not enough material there to adequately support the front thrust washer.
    BTW did I tell you about the inner thrust rings on the reverse idler that can be reverse fitted so that the balls have a new surface to run against? They just tap out easily.
    The fun and games start when you try to reassemble that plunger dowel and lock ring! I find that a piece of hard wire bent at right angles so that the bent leg is the space between the thrust recess of the gear and the bottom of the spline on the mainshaft will hold the dowel depressed until the lock washer can be slid down and partly retain the dowel. The wire can be twisted out and the lock ring turned until the dowel snaps into place! Good Luck!
    Last edited by gerrypro; 27th April 2016 at 11:24 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Hi - I suspect that the problem is caused more by the blocking of the lubrication thus causing accelerated wear of the bush, than the bush not supporting the adjacent gears. Yes the bush has moved in a little, but the smaller OD outer gear is still supported outboard of the extents of the gear teeth. Just thinking aloud...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whippet View Post
    Hi - I suspect that the problem is caused more by the blocking of the lubrication thus causing accelerated wear of the bush, than the bush not supporting the adjacent gears. Yes the bush has moved in a little, but the smaller OD outer gear is still supported outboard of the extents of the gear teeth. Just thinking aloud...
    Yes the displaced bush blocks the lubrication holes And the bushes begin to wear in a bell mouth situation!
    Cheers Gerry

  23. #73
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    Well I'm incredibly lucky. Gerrypro called in for a visit last month. He spotted quite a few issues I had missed. I'll go into these as I get to them (so he can correct me if I'm wrong ).


    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180641.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180640.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180639.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180638.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180637.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180636.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180634.jpg





    This is why Gerry was so concerned I couldn't use that gearbox case. There is actually a whole chunk missing. The bizare bit? It's not in the gearbox anywhere! I wonder if this was broken off many decades ago and ignored





    I did go fishing .... and foudn the broken teeth.... But where is the broken bit of gearbox housing
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  24. #74
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    This should make life easier. The car has come down here for a holiday (this car has done more kilometers on my car trailer than it has under it's own power ).



    I imagine this will be it's new home for sometime. no doubt it'll take me to next spring to get the gearbox together and back in ( there is a lot of stuff I need to do that has priority over it .... ).



    I couldn't help myself though, I had to crawl under it ... I've never really seen under this car before. Infront of the back wheel. I have no idea if this is right. It doesn't look rusty though.



    The boot. A decent hole in the bottom of it. It looks like large drain slot cut into it ................. Or a nicely shaped rust hole.



    same deal above the other back wheel.... bodged up .... or how it left the factory knowing Citroen. how on earth it hasn't rusted out here I don't know with those overlapping kinda joined together pieces. (they did a lot of that on the DS hull too).



    Er, I rekcon I might re-route those fuel tank sender wires .... I don't reckon the exhaust is the best place for them ( Oh, and no wonder is sounds so nice, that looks like a brand new Lukey muffler there). It's hard to believe this car is 65years old .... It's way less rusty than any other car I own by the looks of it! The floor pan looks fantastic (either that or I have no idea how to check Tractions, which is entirely possible )











    Qualtrim in Ballart retrimmed this car about 15years ago. I know it's not original. But I reckon it looks spectacular.... The did a brilliant job of it. They used those stainless steel headed nails to assemble all the roof lining and everything. It looks and smells new inside. I don't like even sitting in it for fear of messing it up (all my cars are "well used family" cars... ie: covered in kids crap, stains, dirt and holes).



    Yes, it was on a club permit years ago..... Just as well it was that really crappy club permit scheme that didn't allow you to ever actually drive the car .... As that gearbox sure would have exploded. The only trip this car ever did was a drive ... maybe 10km round trip to be my wedding car.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180629.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180627.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180628.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180641.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180633.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180632.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180631.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180626.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180625.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180624.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180623.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180622.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180621.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180620.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180619.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180618.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180617.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180616.jpg  

    GreenBlood likes this.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #75
    Fellow Frogger! caparobertsan's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    Very nice looking car! Jealous!
    1961 Citroen ID19(2010~), Holden Frontera(R.I.P 2002-2014), Honda Accord EURO(2006~)

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