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Thread: Finally ... Repairing a traction gearbox.

  1. #26
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    You will also need to reset the C W and P once it has been disturbed. It is necessary to remove the Diff in order to extract the main shaft. Whilst the pinion and main shafts are out it is good to replace the double row front bearings. Replacements are 3305s and used to be very commonly available from local bearing service shops. The rear pinion bearing is a little harder but being a roller bearing give very little trouble. The very hard bearing to source is the Thrust bearing on the pinion shaft between second fixed pinion and the first/ reverse cluster gear. The reverse idler may not be as critical as you may think The bronze bush ids by design a loose fit to allow lubrication and the ball thrusts at each end can be refurbished merely by reversing the thrust rings to eliminate excessive end play!
    Of critical importance is the condition of the half locking rings and if too far gone to be cleaned up by lapping must be replaced. This will definitely involve re-shimming the adjustments for conical depth of the pinion!
    I'll have to read the manual, and try to understand all of this I'm sure it is obvious one the shafts are out !

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  2. #27
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    Doubt whether I've ever seen a traction with whitewalls (fortunately). Love 'em on old Fords and Chevs but Tractions, OMG!
    '04 Megane
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    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

  3. #28
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    Hi Shane,
    back in the '70s and '80s I rebuilt quite a few TA gearboxes.
    I wrote up how to dismantle, examine, and re-assemble them at the time. The file will tell you all you need to know, but it's 4MB. If you pull the synchro hub apart cover it with rag to stop all the bits flying about. You will need the special tool to put it back together which I have.
    I'm seriously ill at the moment but if you wish to have the file and borrow the tool(s) ring Fay on 5472 3130
    roger

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    the famous 18E pug206gti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    The only time one needs to double clutch is changing from 2nd back into first whilst on the move. Thankfully this is never really needed as 2nd is a good strong gear and can haul away from very low speeds. BTW have you ever needed to drive a D with a broken clutch cable? One starts the car with 1st engaged and then it is rev matching to accomplish all changes from then on once moving!
    G'dday,
    no, but I have driven a 2Ĺ Riley with a broke clutch rod, a common occurrence if it is not adjusted correctly.
    regards,
    Les W.


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  5. #30
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    i have a spare TA gearbox and engine unit if anyone wants or needs it.... what is going price in 2016? Engine seems complete. gearbox was known to be a good box when last installed in a car back when T Rex roamed the surface of Terra Australis, a different TA. i am in inner city Melbourne, 0407 807 813 jon

  6. #31
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Hi Shane,
    back in the '70s and '80s I rebuilt quite a few TA gearboxes.
    I wrote up how to dismantle, examine, and re-assemble them at the time. The file will tell you all you need to know, but it's 4MB. If you pull the synchro hub apart cover it with rag to stop all the bits flying about. You will need the special tool to put it back together which I have.
    I'm seriously ill at the moment but if you wish to have the file and borrow the tool(s) ring Fay on 5472 3130
    roger
    An incredibly generous offer. Concentrate and getting yourself better and we'll worry about cars later ..... This stuff can always wait !!! (hey this one has waited 15years so far!!).

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonf View Post
    i have a spare TA gearbox and engine unit if anyone wants or needs it.... what is going price in 2016? Engine seems complete. gearbox was known to be a good box when last installed in a car back when T Rex roamed the surface of Terra Australis, a different TA. i am in inner city Melbourne, 0407 807 813 jon
    Put it away as a spare for your new (old!) traction Jon. Never know when you might need it.
    Dave G
    '04 Megane
    Gone but not forgotten
    '71 16 TS, '72 16 TL, '74 15TS,'82 20TS Series 2, '85 25 GTX. '49 L15,

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    A friend of mine restored one of those many years ago. He let me have a drive of it. He had fully restored the car , the engine, everything. It was a truely HORRIBLE experience. No synchro in any gear. You had to double clutch it, it was just no fun at all. I'd be taking those cogs out and replacing them with something user friendly.
    Something at least with synchro mesh.
    Aint nought but a Big Girls Blouse...

    A red-blooded, hairy-chested, Australian bloke would not notice wever it had synchro or not.

    In fact he'd drive a modern manual but use the clutch under duress. And, on the rare occasions he does gnash the gears, he calmly states in a loud voice to anyone with in earshot, "T'aint no point in having teeth if'n ya don't clean them!"
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhs2.1 View Post
    Hi Shane,
    back in the '70s and '80s I rebuilt quite a few TA gearboxes.
    I wrote up how to dismantle, examine, and re-assemble them at the time. The file will tell you all you need to know, but it's 4MB. If you pull the synchro hub apart cover it with rag to stop all the bits flying about. You will need the special tool to put it back together which I have.
    I'm seriously ill at the moment but if you wish to have the file and borrow the tool(s) ring Fay on 5472 3130
    roger
    Hi Roger, I am truly devastated to hear that you are not well. Hang in there old friend and do the best you can to get well.
    Cheers Gerry

  10. #35
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    But I do understand. I can see the synchro. It's a half-girlie car; there are 1st and 2nd to master. In other prewar vehicles there might be 3 or 4 as well.
    My father had a Lancia Lambda. They had a four speed non synchro box. Once double clutching and rev matching for the upward shifts was mastered the box was silky smooth to drive. The sheer delight of mastering the technique was a joy in itself. Dad reckoned he could play a tune on that box!
    Sadly I was never able to try it for myself. The car was long gone by the time I was old enough to drive!
    Cheers Gerry

  11. #36
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    A friend of mine restored one of those many years ago. He let me have a drive of it. He had fully restored the car , the engine, everything. It was a truely HORRIBLE experience. No synchro in any gear. You had to double clutch it, it was just no fun at all. I'd be taking those cogs out and replacing them with something user friendly.
    Something at least with synchro mesh.
    George it occurred to me that the reason that you clashed the gears and hence spoiled your driving experience may have been the old trap that newbie traction drivers often fall into. The synchros in a TA box are slowish compared to modern cars. They are never going to be quick even when brand new. Hurry the change and they will clash every time. The technique is a definite 123 action.
    1 being the release from the current gear, 3 being the selection of the next gear and most importantly 2 being a defined pause in the centre of the gear change gate. This allows time for the bronze synchro cone to bite on the forged steel cone of the idler gear and then the outer synchro drum that is internally splined can accurately lock over on to the dog teeth of the idler gear. Follow this practice and driving a TA becomes a refined and delightful experience.
    Nothing on the road steers as directly and accurately as a TA. Although heavy at parking speeds it is quite manageable as long as the wheels are slowly rolling. On the open road the steering comes into its own and is well weighted. The cars were renowned for their strong and progressive brakes and for a drum system were comparatively resistant to fade. The handling is ideally balanced with a 55% weight bias on the front wheels (the optimum figure for front wheel drive ) and one can cruise all day at 55 to 60 miles per hour in comfort. This was of course ideal in its era of narrower winding single lane roads common in most parts of Europe and England, even here in Australia our major highway, the Hume was only one lane in each direction and on the NSW side appallingly maintained. Todays freeways do not suit the car well at all. That being said on a recent run to Shepparton up along the Goulburn Valley Highway I was able to hold speed with the traffic a 110KPH. The engine was certainly working at its maximum and at those speeds the noise levels become a little overwhelming for normal conversation!
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    Cheers Gerry

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Hi Roger, I am truly devastated to hear that you are not well. Hang in there old friend and do the best you can to get well.
    Ditto Rog. Hope all will be well. Best wishes
    David G
    '04 Megane
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  13. #38
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    add some files I"ve stolen from the TA group. Yes, Gerrys work too Sadly Roger Brundles rebuild document seems to have gone walkabout ( there is a directory there but no file in it).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-gears-final.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-diff-final.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-casing-final.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-clearance_pinion_shaft.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-mesh_clearance.jpg  
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    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 23rd April 2016 at 11:10 AM.
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  14. #39
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Reconditioning the gearbox in my 1955 Traction.
    Richard Sheil
    Dublin, Ireland

    Introduction:
    As some of our members may know my car broke down fairly significantly during last yearís Annual Rally in York which necessitated an engine rebuild. However I had noticed that the gearbox had become rather noisy and so decided to recondition it too during the winter of 2006 / 2007.

    Having never done this before to any car I began to realise that there was a fair bit of mystery attached to the Traction gearbox and set about understanding what was required. These notes are a description of what I did to my gearbox and I am sure more experienced people may have some other views. They also donít describe every action but are written from the point of view of what I would have liked to have known before starting out on this project.

    The manual that I have is very clear in listing each step of activity required. What it lacks is a clear overview of what the steps are trying to achieve. Without the overview I think you are operating blind.
    Objective:
    In my view the objective of the gearbox overhaul is to replace all bearings and bushes, inspect and replace gears and shafts etc as necessary and to set clearances to specification.

    I have modified the drawings from the parts books to reference the numbers that are used in the manual. This made it easier to ensure that the correct parts were reinstalled correctly and to understand what is going on.




    Having disassembled the gearbox to its constituent parts and having cleaned them and laid them out in order on the bench the objectives are:
    To set the second gear axial play (between 34 and 21 on Gears drawing) to between 0.05 to 0.10mm by choosing the thickness of the celeron washer (36).
    To set the 3rd gear axial play (between 3 and 38 on Gears drawing) to between 0.10 and 0.20mm by adjusting the thickness of washer (49).
    To set the play between the 1st gear (40+12) and the bearing on the pinion shaft to between 0.10 and 0.20mm by choosing the thickness of the celeron washer (39).
    To set the play for the reverse / first idler to between 0.05 and 0.20mm.
    o remove as much backlash from the planet gear / satellite gear assembly of the differential (see Differential drawing) as possible by setting the position of the satellite gears correctly by means of the adjustment washers.


    To preinstall the pinion shaft in the gearbox followed by the differential and to set the axial position of the shaft such that the clearance between the end of the shaft (pinion end) and the differential housing is to specification, this is known as the pinion to crown wheel setting. This is done by means of the metal shims (see Differential drawing). The specification is engraved on the end of the pinion and on the crown wheel.
    Once these settings have been achieved the gearbox is reassembled and the pinion to crown wheel setting checked once more.
    To set the tangential or rotary play or backlash of the pinion to crown wheel to specification. The manual says that this setting is engraved on the crown wheel but this was not the case. In my case by asking the question on TA-L discussion group I was able to determine the specification to be between 0.19 and 0.23mm.
    To verify that with the complete gearbox reassembled that the synchromesh unit overlaps third gear when third is selected and second gear when second is selected. In the event that this is not correct then the axial position of the whole primary shaft may be adjusted by means of paper shims (see Casing drawing)


    Disassembly:
    Disassembly of the gearbox is relatively straightforward if the manual is followed. In my case I discovered the following. I broke the casting supporting the reverse gear idler shaft as I tried to drive the shaft out with a punch. If I had extracted the plug which inhibits removal of this shaft by pushing it in toward the gearbox this would not have happened. I also found all gears to be in excellent condition. The differential had large play caused by the crown wheel not being properly fixed to the differential housing and by significant wear in the planet / satellite gear area. Given that I was going to reset everything to factory settings I did not measure the existing settings but others may wish to do so for completeness. The large nuts on the end of each shaft were removed using a large socket. To do this the gearbox must be stopped from rotating and this is done by selecting 3rd and 1st gear at the same time.

    Replacement:
    I replaced all the bearings in the box. The only quirk worth noting is that the rear bearings for the primary shaft were not available and instead of replacing two bearings with a spacer between them, a single bearing was used, held in place with circlips. In my case I had to grind down one of the circlips by a small amount to allow both clips return into their associated grooves in the shaft.
    I replaced all the bronze bushings in the gears as they were allowing each gear to rock slightly in relation to the shaft. I replaced bushings in gears 18, 35, 40 and the reverse / first idler. A hydraulic press is needed to carry this out and the bushing in gear 18 had to have oil holes drilled once installed. The bushing in gear 35 consists of two bushings which are pressed in from each end. I understand that they can have a tendency to migrate towards the centre of the gear so I installed them with Loctite Bearing Fit.

    Reassembly of the Differential:
    This was quite fiddly as it was necessary to repeatedly trial fit each satellite pinion and washer to the cross shafts in the differential to determine the correct washer thickness for each satellite pinion (see Differential drawing). Once this was done the whole differential was then reassembled repeatedly with different thickness celeron washers behind the planet gears to until minimum backlash but no binding was achieved. In my case the satellite pinion washers were not available in the thickness that I required so I compensated for this by increasing the thickness of the washers behind the pinions to tighten the mesh.

    I used new bolts to clamp the crown wheel to the differential housing and fastened them with lock tabs and Loctite.

    Setting axial clearances on shafts:
    Parts 34 to 21 were reinstalled on the primary shaft and held in place with the locking pin and spring that can be seen on the Gears drawing. This was done with the shaft removed from the gearbox. The pin and spring were reinstalled using some grease to stop them flying across the workshop and a bent piece of wire to push them home. I used a pop rivet with the end bent at 90 degrees to make a think hook. The thickness of the washer 36 (made of fibre like material called Celeron) was chosen to make the required clearance as listed above. In my case having bought washers in myriad sizes I still did not have what I required so had to adjust the thickness of the washer by rubbing it on a flat surface with emery paper. Once again this was a case of multiple trial fittings until a suitable clearance was obtained.

    The third gear axial play was checked between 3 and 38 and found to be acceptable. If it was not then the steel washer 38 would have had to be ground to size.

    The pinion shaft was also assembled on the bench and when fully tightened the clearance between 39 and the bearing checked. I am confident that the part listed as 51 (see Gears Drawing) does not exist on late gearboxes. Once again the celeron washer 39 had to be made to the required thickness on the emery paper.

    I measured the reverse / first idler play. It was more than the specification but as I had no means to change it and as the bearing races and hardened washers had no evidence of wear I deemed the settings not to have changed since the gearbox was first built. On consideration I was confident that this was one of the least important clearances in the box and reassembled it unadjusted.
    Reassembly:
    The pinion shaft was then disassembled and reassembled into the gearbox casing. The differential was reinstalled to the casing with the ring nuts tightened fully (see Differential drawing) so that there could be no wobble of the differential housing relative to the casing. In my case the number etched on the pinion and crown wheel was 56.70mm. Given that the diameter of the housing is 55 mm this indicates a clearance of 1.70mm between the end of the pinion and the housing. This was then set by means of multiple trial fittings of punched metal shims between the bearing housing and the gearbox casing. I did not install the cover over the bearing housing and discovered to my disappointment that the pinion could move towards the front of the box thus making all my work void. I then repeated the task with the cover on the housing to achieve the correct clearance.

    Once that setting was completed the differential was removed and the reverse and primary shafts reinstalled in the box. The reverse shaft was refitted before the primary shaft. The primary shaft was installed paying particular attention that the synchro key (37) was engaged firmly between washers 34 and 38. If this was not done correctly it would chew itself to bits in moments. Apparently this is a common failure mode of these boxes if the nut on the end of the primary shaft becomes loose. I used Loctite on both nuts on the end of both shafts to reduce the chances of this happening. I also tightened the nuts as tight as I could using an extension bar on the socket drive and a wooden pole wedged into the gearbox housing to provide leverage.

    Once all gears were reinstalled the differential was refitted. The axial clearance was rechecked.

    The ring nuts on each side of the tapered differential bearings were adjusted successively so as to bring the crown wheel into mesh with the pinion. A dial indicator was then used to check that the free rotation of the crown wheel was between 0.19 to 0.23mm at the outer diameter of the crown wheel. This was done with the pinion stopped from rotating by a block of wood so that the movement was purely the play between the meshing teeth at the pinion to crownwheel.

    Once this was achieved the ring nuts were backed off slightly to allow the play required by the tapered bearings.

    With all of these settings rechecked the top cover of the gearbox was reinstalled temporarily. The selectors were activated so that third gear was selected. The cover was then removed and it was determined that the synchromesh unit overlapped the teeth of third gear. This same test was repeated for second gear. With the unit overlapping third gear when pushed forward and second gear when pushed rearwards I was confident that the axial location of the primary shaft was acceptable. There is a more complex procedure in the manual but after careful consideration I was confident that this was enough.

    Testing:
    I reinstalled the box in the car together with the newly rebuilt engine and took the car for a drive. Sounds easy! Once I got over my fears that the whole thing would grind to a halt I was amazed at the difference in feel. The gear change was more positive and while it is early days I am confident that the overall noise level and howling from the differential are much reduced. It just feels a whole lot more pleasant to use.

    Conclusion:
    I would recommend anybody with some mechanical experience and the limited special tools (dial indicator and feeler gauges) to take this on. You wonít regret it.

    Finally I would like to thank the people on the TA-L discussion group as they were a wonderful sounding board for me and provided guidance every step of the way.Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-diag2.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-diag1.jpg.jpgFinally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-diag3.jpg
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 23rd April 2016 at 12:30 AM.
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  15. #40
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Hi Shane, I am glad you found that, and that Richard took the time to document his work. I corresponded with him on a frequent basis through the TA-L Yahoo group when he was undertaking his rebuild.
    Cheers Gerry

  16. #41
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    And now for the million and one pictures .... in the hope that I'll be able to figure out how the hell it goes back together in 3months time when we get back to it

    It's already removed from the car, the top cover is off, and the front lower nut cover ( removed ages ago to tighten up the big nut with big bars to see if that solved the noise in the gearbox).





    My concern is why was there broken teeth on a gear in there. I hadn't realised when my father bought the car, it had trashed a driveshaft. So no doubt a shock load went through the gearbox and chipped the teeth ( phew, that's one question solved).



    I whipped front lower cover off .... and being very lazy hooked the massive 3/4" rattle gun to the lower nut and spun it off.



    The top cover.



    Checkout the number of shims behind the bottom front plate/bearing holder



    Someone has been here before. The tabs that you bend back are damaged from previously being bent. I just gave each output shaft a couple of gentle taps with a rubber mallet and it pinion came away.







    To my very unprofessional, incompetent eyes, this all looks extremely good, including the bearings. I won't pull it apart unless I find a good reason (if it all bolts back together within factory specs). I can already hear all boo'ing and hissing from people reading this



    A quick look convinces ... damn, you can't just slide either of the shafts out. Things look pretty sad when you actually see me with a manual open beside what I"m trying to dismantle

    Now if I'm reading the manual right, I need to strip the back off the top shaft. .... I hate snap rings and these bloody spring clips you can't grab with normal circlip pliers. I managed to work it off with 3 small screwdrivers without damage (I'm sure there is a special tool for these rings, but I don't own it!).



    It's two seperate bearings, I found they will readily tap back through if gently tapped back through the housing. If the 2nd bearing stops dead, make sure the washer between them hasn't grabbed the circlip groove.





    This clip readily slides down the slide as you can lift and pry it forward at the same time quite easily.

    The gear the engages the reverse idler then slides down the shaft and off.






    the manual seems to think I can move the top shaft down and to the side and it'll slide out forward. I reckon I'll need to remove the nut and bearing off the front of it first. I'll hopefully get outside later tonight and try this. That synchro hub will certianly need to come off first. And likely so will those big gears,, I can't see how they can fit through the gearbox housing.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180529.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180528.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180526.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180525.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180524.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180523.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180522.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180520.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180518.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180516.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180515.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180514.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180512.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180509.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180508.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180507.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180506.jpg  
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  17. #42
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Oh yeah... I'm wondering if this hasn't been apart in the past to fit a higher geared crown and pinion. I can't imagine why there is so many markings on this otherwise

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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  18. #43
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Yeah, thought so, whip the nut and bearing off the front, slide the shaft back then up and out the top.



    Wow, glad I read the manual... "remove bolt holding reverse shaft" .... I hadn't even spotted that was there.



    As suggested by Richard in that article I drove the plug back into the gearbox. It readily moves and isn't crazy tight like most things you come across.



    The plug came out with metal fragments behind it.



    Manual ... "Knock out shaft towards front of box" .... yeah, hilarious aren't they. There is no way to get onto that shaft to drive it anywhere. Anyway, it's not tight, I dropped that alan key bit down into the recess and sat a socket extension against the edge of it ... the tiniest tap with a hammer had it moving. So I just pushed the shaft through with my finger. Things can't be this easy ..... I'm guessing getting it back together will be the drama.



    Big CAPITAL letters in the manual. "WHEN REMOVING THE PINION TAKE CARE NOT TO DISPERSE THE STEEL BEARING BALLS" ............................................ Or in other words the manuals writers were rolling on the floor in fits of laughter meaning "You will be retrieving the balls and shims from the bottom of the gearbox if you manage to get it apart"



    It's no big drama really. I can see the "excitement" involved in trying to refit this gear without filling the bottom of the gearbox with bearings you can't readily retrieve though.





    Manual states: "Part the second speed pinion 11 from first and reverse idler gear (23) so as to provide clearance for the removal of half collars (13)" ...................



    There taking the piss right ?? There's no way I can seperate that to get to collar 13. It appears 41 is an inner bearing race, so I first need to get the bearings out of the way (which aren't shown in that diagram, I wonder if this is a later/earlier/different gearbox).

    seeya,
    Shane L,
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180541.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180540.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180538.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180537.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180536.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180535.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180534.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180532.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180531.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180530.jpg  
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 24th April 2016 at 12:17 AM.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  19. #44
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Knock back the pinion shaft towards the rear as much as possible. Slide 43, 42 and 11 along the shaft and collars 13 are easily accessed! There probably will not be a part 51. Post war boxes did not have it next to the speedo drive.
    It helps to stand the box vertically with the bevel pinion at the lowest point and to use a large screw driver to lever the gear 11 upwards. The collars 13 will then flick out with the aid of a small screw driver. I stand the box in a 100mm vice on the bench.
    Last edited by gerrypro; 24th April 2016 at 07:53 AM.
    Cheers Gerry

  20. #45
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    Knock back the pinion shaft towards the rear as much as possible. Slide 43, 42 and 11 along the shaft and collars 13 are easily accessed! There probably will not be a part 51. Post war boxes did not have it next to the speedo drive.
    It helps to stand the box vertically with the bevel pinion at the lowest point and to use a large screw driver to lever the gear 11 upwards. The collars 13 will then flick out with the aid of a small screw driver. I stand the box in a 100mm vice on the bench.
    That's hilarious ... I wonder if I would have ever been game enough to do that without you suggesting it. I stood the gearbox on it's end and gave the end of the shaft a few heavy whacks with a rubber mallet.





    Look how much space opened up at the top of the shaft



    There is the C clips there, as Gerry suggests, very easy to get out.





    The manual says to drive the shaft back through the back .....



    So I tipped it vertical and tried to remove the shaft, lifting off each gear and washer in order.



    Gerry is right again, the extra spacer isn't there.



    Typical, the very, very last thing to be removed is the gear I'm intersted in.





    missing teeth.



    I noticed when I was rolling it over trying to figure out how it worked .... the gear that engages the reverse idler shaft, can move all the way back and engage this. the edge of the teeth is worn down as that gear has been touching in normal use right ?? It must be linkage adjustments on the box that need to prevent this.



    I can see the casing is broken around the reverse idler shaft, this must have been taken out when the teeth were damaged. Fortunately it doesn't appear to interfere with the shaft at all.





    I bought one of those parts washers about 10years ago when they appeared really cheap on the market..... You know, I've found them not much use at all. I broke the cobwebs away from above it and plugged it in. I had to tilt the side of it up as a lot of the solvent has evaporated over the years. I wanted to wash the muck out of the bottom of the gearbox, but make sure it was all caught, incase there was bearings or anything in it I needed (there must be broken teeth there somewhere at a minimum. It actually worked quite well for this.

    I was itching to try putting the gearbox casing in the dishwasher while my wife wasn't home. But I figured the kids would dob me in as soon as she got home



    This is why I've never really used the parts washer. A pressure washer with a $2.00 tin of degreaser works miracles. I even stripped half the paint and paper gaskets off it is so effective.

    seeya
    Shane L.
    PS: I can now see why no-one is ever keen to rebuild these gearboxes. I assumed I'd be whiipping out to shafts and re-doing them and re-installing. Not actually having to fit it all together "inside' the housing. This shouldn't be difficult, but it'll be really fiddly, time consuming and frustrating as it'll all need to be assembled/dis-assembled multiple times inside the housings to the the measurements right.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180562.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180561.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180560.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180559.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180558.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180556.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180554.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180553.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180552.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180550.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180549.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180548.jpg  

    Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180547.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180546.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180545.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180544.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180543.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180542.jpg  

    GreenBlood and 59 Floride like this.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  21. #46
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    ok, now is where stuff gets interesting, and my severe lack of experience shows up



    barely any slop in the broken gear on the lower shaft...



    it's so tight over the splines of the shaft, see the bronze fragment on top where it has actually marked the bushes. I'm assuming I can just move these bushes to the replacement gear. New bushes can't be any tighter if I have to tap this gear on with a rubber mallet.



    The bearing all roll so smoothly and quietly. This one I can "rock" if that makes sense. I'll see how much a replacement bearing is (and if it is available).



    This bush on the top shaft I think will need replacing.





    These funny little balk/synchro mesh (what are they called on these early gears). Appear to grab remarkably tightly when I try them. They can go straight back in.

    fun and games right ?

    seeya
    Shane L
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180571.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180569.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180568.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180565.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180564.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180563.jpg  

    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  22. #47
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    'it's so tight over the splines of the shaft, see the bronze fragment on top where it has actually marked the bushes. I'm assuming I can just move these bushes to the replacement gear. New bushes can't be any tighter if I have to tap this gear on with a rubber mallet.'

    Yes!

    'The bearing all roll so smoothly and quietly. This one I can "rock" if that makes sense. I'll see how much a replacement bearing is (and if it is available).'

    They rarely give any trouble and a slight rocking is permissible. It is a roller race and only carries loads diametrically!

    'I can see the casing is broken around the reverse idler shaft, this must have been taken out when the teeth were damaged. Fortunately it doesn't appear to interfere with the shaft at all.'

    I have a spare casing if you wish to use it!

    'These funny little balk/synchro mesh (what are they called on these early gears). Appear to grab remarkably tightly when I try them. They can go straight back in.
    fun and games right ?'

    I have the fixture to dismantle and reassemble the six balls in the synchro hub. Rock the outer into the first click position either side of centre. This will allow you to assess the condition of the splines where they lock onto the Dog gear of each synchro cone. If the wear is parallel to the axis of the main shaft and not too severe you should be able to reuse the synchro hub.
    Cheers Gerry

  23. #48
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Thanks for the incredibly generous offer. I really do think this case should be ok.





    It looks bad in "up close" photography. But reality is it's barely even touching the area the shaft runs in (as the area is "open" beside the break to clear the top shaft in the gearbox).



    I thought I'd waste hours/days finding/fabricating the press tool. measuring the bush OD gave 34.3mm.... It's only about 1mm thick. So I'd need to turn down the ***exact*** sized press tool. Imagine my surprise to find I had the bush in my hand 3minutes later. A couple of year back when I bought the land rover I found it was a PITA as random fasteners were A/F (even in the 90's ). Anyway I bought a big well used dufor socket set for next to nothing at the market. The 1" socket in it was exactly 34mm OD. This sort of stuff usually never happens.



    I was expecting 2 bushes? I seem to recall you saying that in the past. There is one big bush with an oiling groove in it.



    The only real wear I can find here is the main splines onto the shaft.



    The should give some really lovely on/off throttle driveline lash right? I think you must have bought one of these up for me too? ( I can't think where else it would have come from )... I tried it, it about the same wear wise onto the main shaft for slop, but there is a small amount of slop on the splines the outer selector part slides on, that isn't on the one currently in the gearbox.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180577.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180575.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180574.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180573.jpg   Finally ...  Repairing a traction gearbox.-p1180572.jpg  
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  24. #49
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    'I thought I'd waste hours/days finding/fabricating the press tool. measuring the bush OD gave 34.3mm.... It's only about 1mm thick. So I'd need to turn down the ***exact*** sized press tool. Imagine my surprise to find I had the bush in my hand 3minutes later. A couple of year back when I bought the land rover I found it was a PITA as random fasteners were A/F (even in the 90's ). Anyway I bought a big well used dufor socket set for next to nothing at the market. The 1" socket in it was exactly 34mm OD. This sort of stuff usually never happens.'

    Yes those things are floating bush and never really wear much at all.

    I'll be interested to see what you find when you open up the diff top hat!

    'I was expecting 2 bushes? I seem to recall you saying that in the past. There is one big bush with an oiling groove in it.'

    No that is in the second synchro gear idler on the main shaft. I have turned down those floating bushes to replace the two separate bushes of the second synchro gear.

    'The only real wear I can find here is the main splines onto the shaft.'

    There is never dangerous wear on the main shaft splines. The ones I was talking about are the splines on the inner part of the outer ring of the synchro. If they are badly worn the car will jump out of gear. These splines lock over the dog teeth on the second and top gear synchro idler gears.

    I can't open the video!!
    Cheers Gerry

  25. #50
    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    A Couple of points!
    Do you have the dowel key that goes in between the splines on the mainshaft to peg the thrust washers for the second and third idlers?
    I have a selection of "Celeron" washers to choose from when setting the end play of the mainshaft gears.
    Once the pinion shaft has been disturbed it will need to be reset with shims. It is NEVER good enough to just put it back with the same shims as came out.
    I also have a large selection of spare pinion shaft shims to choose from!
    Do not use paper gaskets to seal the front bearing carrier to the gearbox case! Use Silastic 732 RTV or similar instead! Paper gaskets squash and mess up the pinion depth setting.
    Front bearings are 3305 s and are fairly common. They are not split row as per the original but that is not important.
    Do not under any circumstances use the bend over star washer to lock up the pinion nut in front of the 3305 bearing. Use Loctite instead.
    I have a tool to turn the ring nut adjusters of the Timken tapered roller bearings for the diff/crown wheel assembly. It is a bit roughly made but works well enough!
    GreenBlood likes this.
    Cheers Gerry

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