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Thread: orange to green.

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    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default orange to green.

    Hi citmen.Did you know that Penright has changed the colour of suspension oil to green? Got some today for c5x7 .Says orange on label but turns out green.Repco checked it out and confirmed colour. more confusion? Tomfrog

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfrog View Post
    Hi citmen.Did you know that Penright has changed the colour of suspension oil to green? Got some today for c5x7 .Says orange on label but turns out green.Repco checked it out and confirmed colour. more confusion? Tomfrog

    Doesn't sound right to me.
    I would not use it. Certainly not until you had confirmation by one of the technicians at Penrite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomfrog View Post
    Hi citmen.Did you know that Penright has changed the colour of suspension oil to green? Got some today for c5x7 .Says orange on label but turns out green.Repco checked it out and confirmed colour. more confusion? Tomfrog
    Yes it does add to the confusion, I don't know why Penrite have opted to be the odd man out and supply LDS in green.

    If I were you I would try to remove a label from the Penrite container and affix it next to the LDS reservoir, this should signal to anyone confused by the colour that the correct fluid (albeit the wrong colour) has been used.

    Total LDS is readily available in the correct Orange colour - Citroen made the colour change to avoid this confusion. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Wot 'e said. Penrite ought be flogged for this.

    It doesn't only look like another hydraulic fluid, but it can be mistaken for brake fluid as well.
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    Have wondered for some time what LDS really was - given all the 'hype' about the stuff. We, of course, in NA will never see the stuff. From what I have found so-far is that overall its physical characteristics are on a par with the original LHM. Same basic 40C viscosity (18) and a VI (viscosity index of 320). OTOH I did find that the stuff is available in two different colors - "orange" when labeled LDS, and "green" when labeled "Euro Power Steering Fluid C". According to the Material Data Safety sheets for the two products they are, as far as I can tell, the same stuff. And it is a petroleum based fluid just as LHM is.

    As to why Cit went to it - my guess is that it is cheaper to make. Just a guess, but given the cost constraints placed on Cit by their corporate masters, it would be a reasonable assumption. It is also just as reasonable to assume that, when spilled, the stuff may have a lower environmental impact to the environment.

    OTOH checking with Penrite would be a capital idea before putting it into a car with LDS already in its veins.

    As I have time will do more searching. More of an intellectual exercise for me as I, we, will never have a need for it anyway

    Steve

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    I've approached Penrite previously about other things through their contact button the the web site, and they are very quick getting back to you...



    OTOH checking with Penrite would be a capital idea before putting it into a car with LDS already in its veins.

    As I have time will do more searching. More of an intellectual exercise for me as I, we, will never have a need for it anyway

    Steve[/QUOTE]
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    Oh, and a Holden.

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    Citmen.Comparing numbers on products by Citroen 78$ ltr,and total in hand book, all are compatable .Its got me stuffed. Tomfrog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    Have wondered for some time what LDS really was - given all the 'hype' about the stuff. We, of course, in NA will never see the stuff. From what I have found so-far is that overall its physical characteristics are on a par with the original LHM. Same basic 40C viscosity (18) and a VI (viscosity index of 320). OTOH I did find that the stuff is available in two different colors - "orange" when labeled LDS, and "green" when labeled "Euro Power Steering Fluid C". According to the Material Data Safety sheets for the two products they are, as far as I can tell, the same stuff. And it is a petroleum based fluid just as LHM is.

    As to why Cit went to it - my guess is that it is cheaper to make. Just a guess, but given the cost constraints placed on Cit by their corporate masters, it would be a reasonable assumption. It is also just as reasonable to assume that, when spilled, the stuff may have a lower environmental impact to the environment.

    OTOH checking with Penrite would be a capital idea before putting it into a car with LDS already in its veins.

    As I have time will do more searching. More of an intellectual exercise for me as I, we, will never have a need for it anyway

    Steve
    Steve,
    I think you have to be very careful not to confuse things any more than necessary. . .

    LHM is a mineral oil and is only to be used in systems where it is specified - Green

    LDS is a synthetic oil and should only be used where specified - Orange. (C5/C6)

    LDS is supplied with a foil sealed lid to prevent moister contamination, it is recommended to discard unused fluid after exposing to the atmosphere.

    Valvoline advises that the two fluids are not interchangable.
    Category hydraulic oils - Valvoline

    We have no shortage of either fluid so no requirement to seek out alternatives!

    Penrite and a couple of other brands supply LDS as a green fluid, I understand it (Penrite) is compliant with the Citroen LDS systems - shame about the colour.

    Read the blurb on the back of Carlube's (green LDS) version in this thread
    C5 LDS Fluid- what and where to buy - French Car Forum

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Here's one for an organic chemist amongst us to explain. The alleged composition of both:

    LDS
    1-Decene, dimer, hydrogenated < 80%
    Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated middle < 6%
    Alkyl phosphonate < 0.5%
    Alkoxylated long chain alkyl amine < 0.3%


    LHM
    Distillates (petroleum), hydrotreated light paraffinic <45%
    Hydrocarbons, C13-C16, n-alkanes, isoalkanes, cyclics, <0.03% aromatics <42%
    White mineral oil (petroleum) <10.5%
    2,6- di-tert-butyl phenol <0.65%
    Tris(methylphenyl) phosphate <0.3%
    Tricresyl phosphate <0.3%

    To save you the lookup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Decene (it's hazardous)
    Last edited by seasink; 29th February 2016 at 05:10 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    ...
    LDS is supplied with a foil sealed lid to prevent moister contamination, it is recommended to discard unused fluid after exposing to the atmosphere.
    ...
    Yes, LDS and LHM are definitely not the same product. They are miscible and LHM does not appear to do any harm to an LDS system, at least in the scale of a year of LHM mistakenly added to an older C5 with no obvious bad effects.

    I don't believe LDS is a hygroscopic fluid. I think the capping issue is more to do with the more volatile fractions evaporating rather than moisture being absorbed. That is also why the reservoir is not vented. Although some people do change the caps to reduce the pressure build up and some time return leakage, you'd not be likely to lose much to atmosphere as the car is not rising and falling and moving as much fluid around as older models do. If you see leaked LDS, it can resemble a sticky wax after some time, but LHM never does this.

    I wouldn't advise mixing LHM and LDS on purpose. It's probably better to stay with an orange fluid to avoid confusion. EAI sell Ferodo LDS, which is coloured orange.
    Last edited by David S; 29th February 2016 at 05:48 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    I don't believe LDS is a hygroscopic fluid.
    If you see leaked LDS, it can resemble a sticky wax after some time, but LHM never does this.
    I don't know David, the blurb here suggests it does absorb moister (not the Total product but claims to have the same specs)



    Maybe Citroen found a self healing fluid, the only leak we have had in our 2002 C5 was a gluey goop on the front suspension return

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Valvoline Europe point out that LHM is a mineral based fluid while LDS is synthetic (the 1-decene above), and that Hydractive 3 has a "greater demand" on the fluid.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Steve,
    I think you have to be very careful not to confuse things any more than necessary. . .

    LHM is a mineral oil and is only to be used in systems where it is specified - Green

    LDS is a synthetic oil and should only be used where specified - Orange. (C5/C6)

    LDS is supplied with a foil sealed lid to prevent moister contamination, it is recommended to discard unused fluid after exposing to the atmosphere.

    Valvoline advises that the two fluids are not interchangable.
    Category hydraulic oils - Valvoline

    We have no shortage of either fluid so no requirement to seek out alternatives!

    Penrite and a couple of other brands supply LDS as a green fluid, I understand it (Penrite) is compliant with the Citroen LDS systems - shame about the colour.

    Read the blurb on the back of Carlube's (green LDS) version in this thread
    C5 LDS Fluid- what and where to buy - French Car Forum

    Cheers
    Chris
    Chris,

    Fully understand you concerns. OTOH myself and a lot, I mean a lot, of USA Cit owners have never had LHM in their 'green' fluid cars. Manually shifted cars run just fine on Dexron - no wear problems and no seal problems. Hydraulic shifted cars really need a fluid closer to LHM or LHM+ specifications and that bill is filled by any fluid that meets or exceeds the specs of 5606 aviation fluids (mil spec H). In fact if one looks at the development history of the MilSpec fluids one finds that soon there after the specs of LHM also changed. The only difference was in the actual (40C) viscosity number with the MilSpec fluids being, typically, 3 points higher (15 vs 18) - which, FWIW, is the viscosity of LDS.

    My point is that the same fluid being sold as LDS (orange in color) is also sold as a green colored fluid (power steering). The base oils used for LDS/LHM/LHS are basically colorless or just slightly colored in their initially manufactured state. The admonition from Cit about 'only' using their specified products did not 'hold water' with LHS or LHM. And as I noted earlier the actual product specifications for LDS are not even equal to LHM+ temperature related viscosity induced changes. And LDS is fully nitrile seal compatible. It is also quite possible that the synthetic greases and fluids are more shear resistant allowing them to maintain their chemical properties over a longer period of time. One of the main reasons for changing out the hydraulic fluids in our cars is just because of that problem. And I would suspect the reason modern cars (last 10 years or so) require the use of these synthetic greases to maintain new car warranty protection (at least here in the US).

    Understand I am not advocating that LHM and LDS be mixed. See what the manufacturer of the product has to say. As I noted the same exact product is being sold both as a fluid for Cits as well as power steering fluid - the only difference being the color.

    Steve

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