D-Special Sphere rebuild
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Thread: D-Special Sphere rebuild

  1. #1
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Default D-Special Sphere rebuild

    OK, here's the question.

    Is there anyone around today, in 2016, who has the replacement diaphragms, ability, and desire, to rebuild some two piece spheres for me?

    I lack the equipment to do so, as much as I would love to be able to.

    One of the front spheres on Moby Dick has just disgraced itself by losing all its pressure and injecting some bubbles into my hydraulic system.

    Damn it, this was a fully reconditioned changeover sphere in 2005 when I bought it. The car's only done a rerun of the 1956 Ampol Trial and a few club rallies since then. Surely 10 years isn't too much to ask from a diaphragm? Yes, I'm being facetious.

    On the shelf I have a pair of old, LHS I think, as they're black, two piece spheres that have the adjustable dampers. I also have a set of two piece spheres on Moby Dick, two of which (the rears) have adjustable dampers, two of which do not. (And one of which needs a new diaphragm, so realistically so does the other)

    I believe Richo has moved on from D's? I did correspond with him briefly a few years ago with a view to getting my spares rebuilt by him, but it sort of fell by the wayside with other things happening in my life. (and possibly his)

    I guess I can get them done at Pleaides Australia (they came from there originally) but freight to and from Qld could be a bit exxy.

    So is there anyone in Victoria who can do these for me?

    Anyone who has a set on the shelf they wish to exchange or sell for folding stuff?

    As I'm heading off for a lunch tomorrow with some fellow Retired Gentlemen, I've put in an old CX sphere as a temporary replacement, and Moby now has his cushiony mojo back, but that's obviously not a long term solution.

    Your thoughts Chaps and Chappettes?

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    Cheers, Pottsy
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

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    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Cheers Gerry

  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger!
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    I would send them to roger parker, he has new diaphrams and postage for a couple of spheres is about $20

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    I might be able to setup for this again......

    I have all the tools & gas rig, might have a couple of diaphragms, I'll have to look in the shed (in the morning).

    Do yours have removable or fixed damper valves? Fixed ones can be a bit iffy, as the discs on the top side might be broken.

    I have, in the past, converted fixed to removeable/serviceable.

    Anyone got a supply of diaphragms?
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Bob could be the solution if your spheres need to be rebuilt

    Have a read through this thread, it had some momentum when it kicked off so not sure if anyone here has had success. Only suitable for regassing but something to consider, a home set-up is very appealing, many sphere failures can be attributed to a pressure drop beyond ideal.

    Tecnosir Sphere Regassing Tool

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    the problem with diy sphere regassing is the hire of the nitrogen bottle, its ok if you gas a few spheres from time to time, but for the odd one on a single car it would be cheaper to send them away.

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petermelb View Post
    the problem with diy sphere regassing is the hire of the nitrogen bottle, its ok if you gas a few spheres from time to time, but for the odd one on a single car it would be cheaper to send them away.
    True, and there is an upfront cost involved with Tecnosir, N2 can be had in disposable bottles. I still like the idea of being able to do this at home.

    Have you had recent contact with Roger Parker, I'm having trouble getting in touch for a few other bits and pieces?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  8. #8
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    I have the Tecnosir kit and it works fine,
    Woody

  9. #9
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    I met Roger Parker last year during the SA Bay to Birdwood motor classic. He is having real memory problems and if you want him to do something you will need to persist. :-)

    He was most obliging and very generous to me. A really nice bloke.
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  10. #10
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    Hi Pottsy,

    are you running LHS or LHM? I have a feeling from prior posts you are LHM. if you are LHS though, you almost certinaly won't have to rebuild old black ones they seem to be indestructable. I bought a few very very old and very very dirty ones from Bob King, would not have been used or charged or mounted on a car in 20 years or more. Took them to Shane with his regassing rig, tested them and lo and behold they all took full pressure recharge except I think one - a damaged accumulator sphere.

    I have a feeling LHM diaghrams may not fare so well. For some reason the original rubber compounds are unrivalled in longevity.

    It is good to kmow that somone (buttercup bob) may step up for the future when others are falling by the wayside. I hope one day to collect equipment and skills to keep the process alive while I can (two LHS cars to support).

    Regards Leconte
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    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

  11. #11
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    I phoned roger parker a few days ago and he is still in business, i usually phone him around the middle of the day and ask him to write down any requests i have, apart from the odd hiccup his service is still ok
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  12. #12
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I can regass them probably. I"ve never bothered to make the tools to change the diaphrams though. IMO brake fluid diaphrams seems to last forever if not contaminated. If they still hold gas .................... I'd just recharge them and worry about rebuilds when they no longer hold gas

    Rex on aussiefrogs (ballarat) has made the tools, possibly you could send him a PM. I think Peter Deker has the tools to dismantle spheres too

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    Pottsy,

    Youy're a fair way up the Hellman scale. Make the tools and do it yourself. All you need is to turn up some lumps of steel to fit over the equators of the sphere halves, cut an edge and weld in a clamp (two square bits with a bolt hole in them) so you can tighten them up. Then add a handle. The refinement if you want is to add a side piece that grips the regassing hole thread on one side and the mounting thread on the other.

    Roger

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    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    You've got me thinking now Roger.

    I reckon I can create something, just need to do some thinking and searching in the shed.

    Oh, the car is LHM all the way, but the spare spheres I have are black so I reckon they were LHS. Since they're getting new diaphragms, assuming I can source some, then they'll be fine for LHM.

    And Bob, don't stress about setting up on my account. However, if you or Roger can send me piccies of what setups you have, I may get encouraged to be creative that little bit more.

    I've already got a pressure testing rig I built years ago (and last used yesterday!), so maybe I need to expand operations.

    Oh, and what's the Hellman scale? I'm taking it as a compliment so far. Might look it up though!

    Cheers, and thanks for the responses chaps.

    Pottsy
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    You've got me thinking now Roger.

    I reckon I can create something, just need to do some thinking and searching in the shed.

    Oh, the car is LHM all the way, but the spare spheres I have are black so I reckon they were LHS. Since they're getting new diaphragms, assuming I can source some, then they'll be fine for LHM.

    And Bob, don't stress about setting up on my account. However, if you or Roger can send me piccies of what setups you have, I may get encouraged to be creative that little bit more.

    I've already got a pressure testing rig I built years ago (and last used yesterday!), so maybe I need to expand operations.

    Oh, and what's the Hellman scale? I'm taking it as a compliment so far. Might look it up though!

    Cheers, and thanks for the responses chaps.

    Pottsy
    Yes, will post a couple of pics of tools & gas rig. STANDBY

    The Hellman scale was a tongue in cheek method of determining a Cit owners (specifically D) level of DIY competency.

    It appeared on the old Yahoo Chat groups DSID and the breakaway one.... umm can't remember the name.

    Lance Hellman was in Boston (I met him and visited his "shed" in 2005 on the US leg of my Jubilee trip.

    Lance used it as a way of unofficially rating owners experience with Cit repair, resto and technical understanding.

    From memory it went something like :-

    1. Can change a wheel, sparkplug (if the manual is open at the right page), can identify a sphere, knows the difference between green and red fluid.

    2. Can change the oil/filter, remove & refit a sphere, remove and refit any panel except the roof, understands that the hydraulic pressure within a sphere (when the car is on its wheels) is due to the mass of the car and gravity, not related to any other pressure within the system.

    3. Can remove, clean, refit a height corrector, remove and refit brake calipers, steering rack, suspension arms and roof. Can change front or rear suspension boots. Understands the purpose and general operation of the pressure regulator, understands how sphere precharge pressure is important to maximise the sphere usable volume. Understands why a DS accumulator sphere is not suitable on an ID.

    4. Can remove and refit engine/gearbox, can replace a clutch, can rebuild suspension cylinders, can refurbish steering relay bearings and suspension arm bearings. Can rebuild an engine under supervision. Understands how and why 7 piston pump bodies crack. Can Remove & refit a starter motor..... WHILE the engine is in the car.... in under 4 hours!

    5. Can do pretty well anything. Still doesn't understand how the BVH control valve works.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Well I'll be... I just checked into the Yahoo groups...

    The other one (still active is D Series - L )
    I searched "Hellman Scale"

    Apparently the original was lost... but I redefined it .... must have been about 2005.....

    Here's a cut'n'paste from a reference posted by Tony Jackson.....


    Hi Stan, Scott,
    >Bob recreated the "hellman scale". I don't have a copy of the original.
    >Lance Hellman was the original creator,
    I store a lot of posts from the list, and thought I might have it - alas, no.

    What I discovered, after all this time, is that Lance *Holman*, the
    original author of the 'Scale' (and of wonderful drawings, inspired
    advice, excellent friendship) himself called it the 'Hellman Scale'.
    How did this come about? How come I'd never spotted this before?
    >1) polish the bumpers, adjust the sun visor & mirrors, read the
    >dipstick, maybe top up the LHM.
    >
    >2) change the oil, spark plugs, points, filters. Adjust the fan belt
    >tension, correctly locate the HP pump, pressure regulator and spheres.
    >
    >3) Remove & replace mechanical assemblies like HP pump, pressure reg,
    >wheel bearings, door locks, drive shafts, brake pads & shoes,
    >electrical repairs. Adjust valve clearances.
    >
    >4) Dis-assemble & overhaul mechanical bits. Remove engine/gearbox
    >assembly. Make repairs to structure or body after rust or damage,
    >repaint panels. Change a starter motor without swearing.
    >
    >5) Remove, dis-assemble, overhaul any or all parts, correctly install
    >con-rods, regas spheres, get injection equipped car to run on 4
    >cylinders, re-assemble a height corrector, rebuild a gearbox & set
    >diff backlash.
    Best, T.
    --
    Tony Jackson,
    Devon, UK.


    I can't believe that I remembered it reasonably accurately after more than 10 years.

    Thanks for reminding me Roger.

    Last edited by Buttercup; 11th February 2016 at 08:27 PM.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

  17. #17
    1000+ Posts pottsy's Avatar
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    Love it, expecially your Number 5!

    I reckon I'm at least a 4 then on both scales, possibly 4.5.

    If it referred to Minis I'd be a 5!

    Cheers, and Thanks, Pottsy
    Buvito Ergo Sum!

    The Fleet:

    2018 C3 Shine ("Oscar" Mrs P's)
    1974 D Special Manual Sedan ("Moby Dick")
    2006 C5 HDI Wagon Auto ("Mephistopheles")
    1982 2CV6 ("Gaston") On the road! (Woohoo!)
    1957 Slough 2CV ("Alphonse") Waiting in the wings
    1975 GS Pallas ("GiSelle") Also waiting in the wings
    And for Fun, 1968 Mini Deluxe ("The R & D'luxe" 1078cc, Grin Factor 100!)

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    I failed at #3

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Understands why a DS accumulator sphere is not suitable on an ID.
    . . . but to redeem myself I suspect this only applies to black spheres?

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  19. #19
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Pottsy, I did say you were a fair way up the Hellman scale.

    Bob, I reckon your desciption of the Hellman scale is better than the original.

    Chris, the charge pressures are different. 40 bar for an ID, 65 bar for a DS.

    Roger

  20. #20
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    Chris, the charge pressures are different. 40 bar for an ID, 65 bar for a DS.

    Roger
    Clarification as I understood all green accumulator spheres were created equal, does this only apply to red oil/black spheres - <67 cars?

    Learning all the time

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    I failed at #3



    . . . but to redeem myself I suspect this only applies to black spheres?

    Cheers
    Chris
    Actually it refers to all Dees.

    ID braking system relies on main accumulator for front brake force.
    If you fit a DS accumulator, the higher precharge pressure means that the usable volume (before the precharge expells all fluid reserve) under repeated braking is greatly diminished. For repeated brake application its volume, not high pressure that will save you.
    There was an accident in the US where an ID owner ran out of brakes on the second push, and ran into the car in front at significant speed causing serious damage. It was only after deep questioning we found that he'd fitted a DS accumulator thinking that the higher precharge would be good, not bad.

    It led to a significant improvement in the general understanding (of amateur mechanics) of how accumulators/spheres actually work in a complex system as found in the D cars.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

  22. #22
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Actually it refers to all Dees.

    ID braking system relies on main accumulator for front brake force.
    If you fit a DS accumulator, the higher precharge pressure means that the usable volume (before the precharge expells all fluid reserve) under repeated braking is greatly diminished. For repeated brake application its volume, not high pressure that will save you.
    There was an accident in the US where an ID owner ran out of brakes on the second push, and ran into the car in front at significant speed causing serious damage. It was only after deep questioning we found that he'd fitted a DS accumulator thinking that the higher precharge would be good, not bad.

    It led to a significant improvement in the general understanding (of amateur mechanics) of how accumulators/spheres actually work in a complex system as found in the D cars.
    Very interesting thank you, does that apply to my humble D Special without a brake accumulator. I'm sure the accumulator is 65bar!

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  23. #23
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    A D Special, like a D super is an ID..... accumulator should be only 40 bar.
    Your repeated braking reserve volume is greatly diminished at 65.

    Please everyone.... be aware of this.....!
    FedGrapes likes this.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

  24. #24
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    A D Special, like a D super is an ID..... accumulator should be only 40 bar.
    Your repeated braking reserve volume is greatly diminished at 65.

    Please everyone.... be aware of this.....!
    I don't feel I'm alone here Bob, my accumulator sphere was sold to me as being suitable for my D Special and charged at I believe 62 or 65 bar. This from a very respected Citroen specialist.

    As I said above, learning all the time thank you!!

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pottsy View Post
    You've got me thinking now Roger.

    I reckon I can create something, just need to do some thinking and searching in the shed.

    Oh, the car is LHM all the way, but the spare spheres I have are black so I reckon they were LHS. Since they're getting new diaphragms, assuming I can source some, then they'll be fine for LHM.

    And Bob, don't stress about setting up on my account. However, if you or Roger can send me piccies of what setups you have, I may get encouraged to be creative that little bit more.

    I've already got a pressure testing rig I built years ago (and last used yesterday!), so maybe I need to expand operations.

    Oh, and what's the Hellman scale? I'm taking it as a compliment so far. Might look it up though!

    Cheers, and thanks for the responses chaps.

    Pottsy
    Hi Pottsy, I was pretty sure you were on LHM. Now if you are going to convert some black spheres to LHM ones, can I put up my hand to procure the discarded LHS diaghrams from you? I think you will find they are or were cloudy white, I saw a whole bunch of brand new ones in the back of Citro Motors in Citreon wrappers when Mel was closing down, I was brand new to ID ownership and foolishly did not make an offer for them. I still want to know where the bulk of his mass of ID/DS parts ended up, they must have gone somewhere and someone has a great cache of bits. He also had a sphere rebuilder but claimed it was dangerous to use and he told me he would send it for scrap rather than sell it or give it away.

    Anyway I would appreciate if you think of me if you liberate some LHS diaghrams.

    regards Leconte

    ps my Hellman index would be around 3.5 but may go up a touch when I get my clockwork brakes back together and working on the car, hopefully very soon.
    1962 Heidelberg ID19 "Axel"
    1965 Heidelberg ID19
    half owner 1974 GS 1220 Convertisseur Break

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