DSuper5 engine rebuild
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Thread: DSuper5 engine rebuild

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
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    Default DSuper5 engine rebuild

    Is an engine rebuild straightforward? I have rebuilt several motorbike engines and A series car engines with little trouble.

    I have the Citroen workshop manuals, full set of tools and a dry, clean workshop (cleanish...)

    I just wonder at the prices Der Franzose and some UK specialist charge for a rebuild, or is that just because I work for nothing?

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    Peter

  2. #2
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Easy Peasy,

    D engines are so easy, and almost impossible to get wrong.

    Always a full gasket set, timing chain, rings, and lap the valves.
    And probably main and big end bearings, bearings are pretty cheap so its high on the list.
    Cam followers are usually worse than the cam itself.
    Depending on bore wear you might put a new barrel/piston set in. If not, just a light hone and replace the rings.
    A full head service, specially the guides.

    Further down the list is: small ends, cam bearings, cam sprockets, rocker shafts, oil pump bits.....

    But hey... how much are you going to drive it?

    You might do very well just with timing chain, rings, bearings and a quick lap of the valves.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
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    Bob, thank you. You've put my mind at rest. I will also add dynamic balancing of the crank, rods, pistons and clutch to the equation.

    Now where did I put that stick with a rubber sucker on the end?

    Peter

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Forget the balancing..... I've never found one ever give a hint of imbalance.

    If you have a matched set of pistons (old or new) on the original rod set, it'll be fine....... You're not going racing are you?

    Yes, I can never find all the tools from last time, and have to buy a new stick with rubber sucker, and paste, each time.... then I put it safely in the cupboard....... with all the others

    Get a ring expander and ring compressor too........ to help reduce the risk of breaking a ring.
    You still can break them if you wind the compressor in too much..... so go till you hear the "click" then back it off half a turn.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    I Rebuilt my CX2400 engine and being a D engine that runs in reverse found it was straight forward to work on. Be very critical of any wear on the cam lobes and cam followers. As well there is a procedure given in the CX manual to check if the cam is well timed or not.

    1. Bring piston of cylinder No. 4 to TDC, with the valves in ę rocking positionę.
    2. Align the TDC mark on the flywheel with the timing scale
    3. Adjust clearance of inlet valve (1) of No. 1 cylinder to 1.10 mm (theoretical clearance )
    4. Turn crankshaft exactly one tum in direction of rotation of engine
    5. Check clearance of inlet valve on cylinder No. 1. This must be be-tween 0.05 and 0.25 mm.
    6. Check and adjust rocker-arm clearance (engine cold
    Inlet 0.15 mm Exhaust 0.20 mm.
    If these parameters are met then the cam timing is within tolerance. Mine was not and I needed to make a stepped dowel to adjust the timing sprocket so that the above conditions could be met.
    This procedure will apply to a late D engine. 1,985cc 2,175cc or 2,375cc.
    It made a real difference to the way that the engine ran and to its fuel economy!
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    you should replace the big end bolts though? When I did mine I replaced them, the factory manual stipulates this.

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Forget the balancing..... I've never found one ever give a hint of imbalance.
    Sorry to differ with you Bob - my experience is the opposite - I would always have the engine balanced after my experience with the 69.

    Smooth and quiet - especially at idle - worth every penny IMHO....

    Perhaps I had a particularly unbalanced engine - they took a fair chunk of weight out.

    Cheers,

    Mark...

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    One thing to double check if one is reusing the original pistons is ring lan gap. Being Al the compression and scraper ring lans do tend to spread a bit, esp if the engine has had a lot of miles on it. While one can have the lans re-grooved and install rings of the appropriate width and dia from a different engine, most likely cheaper for most to just replace them. Additionally you will most likely have to either have the cam and cam followers re-machined/hardened/polished. Being a solid lifter engine the cam lobes and followers get a lot of wear. Even here in the Citroen hinderlands of American I was able to find a shop that was able to duplicate the factory original specs with little problem.

    Agree on getting the crank balanced. Not expensive and worth having checked while the engine is apart. Then either weigh, accurately, the pistons (with rings installed)/connecting rods yourself or have a shop do it. Better being safe I may have gotten a bit carried away with mine (got them to with in +/- 0.5grams of each other).

    Steve
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    I may have gotten a bit carried away with mine (got them to with in +/- 0.5grams of each other).
    Actually, that's not getting carried away. That's just prudence, and today it isn't hard to measure out. Slinging a weight at 4500RPM produces a lot of force.
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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post


    Actually, that's not getting carried away. That's just prudence, and today it isn't hard to measure out. Slinging a weight at 4500RPM produces a lot of force.
    Definitely getting carried away.
    What are you doing with the car.

    From my observations, Dees on the road now are treated like precious princesses, compared to the hard use when they were "everyday".
    Only if you are seriously using it "everyday" like about 20,000km per year, or racing, could you justify that sort of Pfaffing around.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    you should replace the big end bolts though? When I did mine I replaced them, the factory manual stipulates this.
    Hi Steven,

    No need to - I've always re-used the originals.... I am curious to know where you got your replacements - I'd have guessed they had gone the way of the dodo...

    Cheers,

    Mark...

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Definitely getting carried away.
    What are you doing with the car.

    From my observations, Dees on the road now are treated like precious princesses, compared to the hard use when they were "everyday".
    Only if you are seriously using it "everyday" like about 20,000km per year, or racing, could you justify that sort of Pfaffing around.
    I totally disagree Bob. A sweet running motor adds to the pleasure of the drive. And a harsh vibrating unit detracts.
    I had the engine for my 11BL Balanced years ago and ran it in my 51 Lt15 Smooth as silk it was! The engine in my 53 Lt15 is as it left the factory and though OK is just not in the same class! Some of the production engines were very, very, good others, woeful. I recommend balancing every time even on old tractor engines such as were fitted to the Tractions!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    A silky smooth idle has nothing to do with crank balance.
    Its totally about ring /valve seal, induction system seal, carby spindle clearance and spark timing.

    At 1,000 rpm balance has no detectable effect
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

  14. #14
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Hey Bob, how's the $20 engine rebuild going?

    Roger

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    A silky smooth idle has nothing to do with crank balance.
    Its totally about ring /valve seal, induction system seal, carby spindle clearance and spark timing.

    At 1,000 rpm balance has no detectable effect
    True , but how about silky smooth from idle right through to max RPM? This is the benefit of balancing. The person who balanced my TA engine for the 11BL had to remove quite an amount of metal from the crank web next to the timing chain to achieve a dynamic balance. This engine will spin smoothly all the way to 5000 rpm. My 53 develops a harshness at around 65 miles per hour that disappears again by 70.
    Cheers Gerry

  16. #16
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Definitely getting carried away.
    What are you doing with the car.

    From my observations, Dees on the road now are treated like precious princesses, compared to the hard use when they were "everyday".
    Only if you are seriously using it "everyday" like about 20,000km per year, or racing, could you justify that sort of Pfaffing around.
    What you don't know- I have first hand knowledge of- is Steve does use both of his DS' everyday. In and about Los Angeles, that tallies up to rather a bit more than 20,000Km/year. Now that house renovations are underway, the wagon is going to be doing yeoman service. That total doesn't include the XM, the 2CV or the Smart For2. Yeah, that sort of care is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    A silky smooth idle has nothing to do with crank balance.
    Its totally about ring /valve seal, induction system seal, carby spindle clearance and spark timing.

    At 1,000 rpm balance has no detectable effect
    !000RPM isn't much better than idle. Try an out-of-balance crank/pistons/flywheel at 3-4x that speed. The result isn't good. If you're lucky, you get what Gerry experiences with his "un-balanced" TA.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Speaking of replacement bits and worn ring lands, wasn't it the Toyota 22R that produced usable replacement pistons for the 21 engine? Might have been the 20R. IIRC they needed only minor machining to fit.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    Hey Bob, how's the $20 engine rebuild going?

    Roger
    Perfect Roger.... you'll be testing it out on Raid !
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    ......... My 53 develops a harshness at around 65 miles per hour that disappears again by 70.
    Probably nothing to do with internal engine balance, more likely uneven inlet manifold distribution, uneven exhaust pressures, sloppy engine mounts, worn drive shaft joints..... the list goes on....
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Probably nothing to do with internal engine balance, more likely uneven inlet manifold distribution, uneven exhaust pressures, sloppy engine mounts, worn drive shaft joints..... the list goes on....
    You have not seen this 53 Bob. If you had you would realise just how good it is. None of your suggestions apply! It is not like a lot of those crappy tractions.
    Cheers Gerry

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    Fellow Frogger! Lasya's Avatar
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    What would be the advantages of using the Toyo pistons over standards?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Speaking of replacement bits and worn ring lands, wasn't it the Toyota 22R that produced usable replacement pistons for the 21 engine? Might have been the 20R. IIRC they needed only minor machining to fit.
    Gillian and Chris

    74 D Special, and now a 74 Pallas 23 5 speed with air(maybe). And now a Cactus!

    Oh, and a Holden.

    Lasya, Tibetan goddess of the moon and beauty who carries a mirror.

  22. #22
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasya View Post
    What would be the advantages of using the Toyo pistons over standards?
    Availability. Reasonable cost. Mind you, this only works if the sleeves are in decent shape. But there are a few running around here, and all reports are they work well.
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Engine smoothness is due to many factors. A very important one is an ignition system in top condition. I still cannot believe how smooth the idle is in my CX after fitting 123 ignition. The smoothness continues as you open the throttle too. I would thoroughly recommend fitting one to your rebuilt engine
    Mine

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    While you've got it out, change the rear engine mounts. If they die they are a real pain to change with the engine in!

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    Fellow Frogger! badabec's Avatar
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    Hello, my engine already has 123 ignition, which works even better when it is on the right setting (don't ask). Engine mounts are on the list as well as refurbishment or replacement of everything I can get to.

    All the tinware will be blasted and parts like the number plate panel, the air scoop and the ventilation scoops will be zinc sprayed before powder coating or painting.

    The aluminium air scoops to the brakes and radiator will be vapour blasted and powder coated.

    I'm even getting the sewing machine out to make a new fabric tunnel.

    With regard to balancing, it is something I have always had done. It may not make a difference, but at least I know it's been done.

    All the glass is out and being coated with 3M Crystalline film. The company doing it recently fitted the film to London buses and has some over so it's a cash deal. I've done it mainly for the UV protection of the trim, and with my wife's hot flushes, any reduction in cabin temperature is a bonus.

    The door trim panels were hardboard and still had Citroen quality control cards stapled to them. I've replace the hardboard with 4mm WBP ply. I reduced the thickness where the trim clips go with a large Forstner bit and then soaked those areas with superglue to give back some strength.

    The old trim has been hand washed, the water was filthy.

    We all like a picture or two
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSuper5 engine rebuild-dsc00176.jpg   DSuper5 engine rebuild-dsc00188.jpg   DSuper5 engine rebuild-dsc00190.jpg   DSuper5 engine rebuild-dsc00207.jpg  
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