DS21 prototype? need help to identify
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Thread: DS21 prototype? need help to identify

  1. #1
    Member levit8's Avatar
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    Icon10 DS21 prototype? need help to identify

    recently bought this barn find from out in the sticks after a tip off from a mate, was parked in an open sided shed and almost fully dismantled for at least 10 years but body is very solid apart from minor rust around boot as that was facing open side of shed
    anyway guy i bought it from had owned it since around 1970 and kept telling me it was a very special car and he was saying it was some kind of a prototype
    personally i dont think it is but dont know enough about these 60s citroens either way so am posting a few pics and appreciate any info as to exactly what make/model it is ive bought
    thanks jeff

    DS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_195321_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_194802_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_194939_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_140201_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_185218_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_184813_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_184806_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_115457_resized.jpg

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Ooh! A slopey dash, second front BVH.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Looks like a transition model DS 21 Pallas in need of some TLC. Congratulations on such an interesting find. It is definitely one of the rarer examples of DS. I doubt if many from this 66-67 year production still remain. Is it red fluid or green fluid?
    Cheers Gerry

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    ...Is it red fluid or green fluid?
    I keep trying to sniff the screen and work it out! More engine bay shots, please.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    French build, 67 DS21 bvh, based on the numbers.
    Very rare, good find, they're out there!

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    that'll keep you busy, for the next 5 years. Beautiful!

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    It would almost certainly be green fluid, introduced in Sept '66 for the '67 model year... which this car is.
    Pallas leather too!
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
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    Member levit8's Avatar
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    not sure what colour fluid as reservoir is in a cardboard box, also head is off motor but motor still bolted in, gearbox is out, steering rack and associated arms removed, im not joking when i said it was dismantled COMPLETELY
    have been bolting on panels etc just so i can put all parts in car and in one place and figure out what to do with it and where to put it
    it also has little DS badges on both rear pillars and think guy said it had factory air cond
    will try and put an engine bay shot up tommorow but there not much to see
    thanks guys

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    What colour spheres on the back?

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    Member levit8's Avatar
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    will let you know tommorow addo

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    UFO
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    After you wipe years of accumulated muck off them :-)
    Craig K
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    Member levit8's Avatar
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    ok heres a few more pics of how it sat for last 10 years, and rh rear sphere looks to be green and under bonnet nightmare

    DS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160123_130615_resized_1.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160203_162046_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160201_194833_resized.jpg

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Awesome! If that's just a smear of green, it's one of the last LHS cars and a DS21P BVH at that... Well done!

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Awesome! If that's just a smear of green, it's one of the last LHS cars and a DS21P BVH at that... Well done!
    Yes It looks as though that green smear is a production check mark on a black sphere. LHS
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Awesome! If that's just a smear of green, it's one of the last LHS cars and a DS21P BVH at that... Well done!
    Yes. It looks as though that green smear is a production check mark on a black sphere. LHS.
    The steering rack appears to be black also ------or just very dirty! Please wipe it clean!
    Cheers Gerry

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    I thought nobody else much was a raving fan of LHS production. So many would seek to "improve" it with an LHM conversion.

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    I'm sorry folks, I can't see that there's anything prototype about this car.

    Its from a '67 model production run of many hundreds. I'll go out on a limb and state that its green fluid.
    The green smear is the only clean bit.

    Yes, nice find, but there's a lot of work ahead.
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    Bob
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    looks liek 15" wheels ... so certainly an interim model... What a find !!! No doubt it'll need a full rebuild if any of those spheres are "black" ... or brake fluid spheres (I've seen brake fluid parts put on LHM cars and .... LHM part put on brake fluid cars several times ).

    seeya,
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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Y/M 1967. DS21 Berline Hydraulic Shift. Serials: 4376200 - 4395446
    Third Y/M of 2175 engine.
    First Y/M of LHM.

    Nice find and... good luck

  20. #20
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    It's the French Ambassador's car...
    David S and daffyduck like this.

  21. #21
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    It's the French Ambassador's car...
    That's not so rare........ I've got 2 of them !

    Old Bill B had an early DS21 at Molong, that he said was a really mixed up transition car.
    I wonder if its still there.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger
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    These 66/67 cars are transition / crossover cars, half way between the old longstroke cars and the later series. You would get much the same result by grafting in the later 5 stud wheel / 5-bearing mechanicals from a later DS/Special into an early ID or DS19. The red fluid to LHM change is in the middle of this too, so two cars like the one featured could look the same, but fall either side of the change point and be different under the skin. The factory made the fluid change for a good reason, so if a total rebuild is involved, switching to LHM would be sensible despite the protestations about originality etc..

    The car you are thinking of Bob, is a '66 red fluid 21 manual gearchange, non-Pallas. 5-stud wheels, 5 bearing engine, 2 headlights .... It is still at Molong, but is incomplete and damaged. Not for sale at present. It keeps company with a 66 Familiale, also a red fluid crossover car and a little more odd because the Safari took some aspects of the DS and the ID19B and mixed them together.

  23. #23
    Member levit8's Avatar
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    ok guys ive removed the lh rear guard and wheel to get a better look at sphere and see whats on that side of first sphere
    definetely looks to be green all over as cleaned a bit more and original wheels are 15s
    one last question is because the id plate says DS21 under type but is blank under SERIE does that still mean its some kind of transition model or are they all not stamped there, thanks everyone for your help and input
    Jeff
    DS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160204_112553_resized.jpgDS21 prototype? need help to identify-20160204_113648_resized.jpg

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    This "Transition" or "prototype" is in my opinion a bit misleading.

    Considering that they made 99,561 Dees in 1966, and 101,904 in 1967 its clear that Citroen settled on specs for more than just a few cars. Indeed '67 is the second biggest year for Dee production... only slightly less than 1970 at 103,633 cars.
    You can't call it a rare model.
    In Australia maybe..... 'cos it was just after local assembly was ended, and the flow of Dees from France to Australia took a while to get going. The car in question might have been a private import.

    Yes, the factory were always making changes, but I'm sure these were planned and scheduled very carefully.

    I doubt there was any year in the history of the Dee that they didn't change something significant.

    Yes, 15" 5 stud wheels was a big jump, yes, red to green fluid was a big jump, and yes the 3rd nose was also.

    However I would also suggest that comparable jumps were made in most years of production.

    I can think of at least 10 other features that are in my opinion as significant, and not in the '66 or 67 years.
    Bob
    '57 Slough DS19, Buttercup
    '60 2CV 1220, Raid Runner
    Several DS19 and 2CV projects

  25. #25
    Fellow Frogger
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    I think most people would see it as a 'transition' or 'crossover' model because it appears to have one foot in the 3-bearing 2 headlight age and the other in the 4 headlight 5 bearing age. It's possibly just a convenient way of describing that particular group of cars in the same way labels are applied for red/green fluid, 1st, 2nd, 3rd front/dash and so on. Some of the other changes before and after were certainly significant, but not necessarily as obvious to the average punter. Plenty made in production around 66 and 67, so lots built in France, just not a great number imported and sold here and relatively few survivors. Not sure about the blank 'serie' box, but the model is certainly DS21.

    It looks to be LHM, but remember LHS and LHM parts are often physically the same and can swapped around, so a sphere alone if not always a reliable guide. Are the other hydraulic components painted green or black? Old LHM turns yellow and can look like brake fluid, while old LHS might seem a bit sticky due to the castor oil it contains. You should be able to pick LHM from LHS though as it's like oil vs brake fluid.
    Last edited by David S; 4th February 2016 at 05:01 PM.

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