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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Default York A/C Citroen DS

    I have always had an A/C in the DS. I had never bothered with it, despite this particular car being the "hottest" of any I have driven. Last year I had the unit regassed and I pointed out a couple of connections I thought were questionable that could be the source of leaks.
    The results were dramatic, the A/C actually blows very cold, and thus far has continued to do so, 2 months later.
    The issue I'm having is that the A/C runs for a few minutes around town and then cuts out for a few minutes and then comes back on. Kind of annoying because it really needs to be going full blast to be effective. I made a few enquiries and never got a consistent answer, so I just assumed that was some black art that I was going to never understand.

    Then, at xmas we drove the car from Melbourne to Byron Bay, it was pretty warm, we had the A/C on the entire trip without it cutting in and out. The main difference was that with the A/C on for an extended period of time the car really cooled down and it was a very pleasant place to be. Unfortunately driving back in 40+ degree heat was less successful.

    Is it the increased air flow through the condensor?
    Could it be voltage related with the higher revs generating higher output?

    Now back in Melbourne and driving around in the city traffic, the A/C does it's old thing of cutting in and out every few minutes. I have heard of an electric pump being investigated for a DS, which sounds promising.

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    Does anyone understand what maybe the cause of the problem I'm experiencing?

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Who did you get to repair the A/C. It could be moisture in the system freezing over the TX valve. It could also be dropping out the high pressure switch ..... or could be low on refrigerant.

    Are the twin condenser fans working out in the guards I would suggest if the condenser fans aren't working... with no airflow when stationary the high side pressures are heading sky high and tripping hte high pressure switch and shutting the A/C down. Turn the A/C on and see if you can see/hear the condenser fans running Don't confuse this with the pretend little electric radiator fan ... I mean the fans that are bolted to the twin condensers down behind the front bumper! I bet the wiring to them is rotten

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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    There are usually 2 switches that go in series with the compressor. One is a thermostat switch that is usually shoved into the evaporator and is set to cycle somewhere above freezing to stop the evaporator freezing over. The other is a pressure switch in the gas circuit often located at the receiver drier that will stop the compressor clutching in if there is low gas pressure in the system and sometimes there is an additional high pressure switch that also de-clutches the compressor if there is just too much heat or gas in the whole system ie the condenser is not getting enough airflow.

    So that's the theory, which bit seems to appeal to you as being the culprit? My suggestion is the anti-freeze thermostat one could have lost some capillary gas or perhaps you are getting too much pressure in the system and it is taking a holiday to cool down a bit. Have a look at the pressure switch to see if you can get some details off it to find out what sort of functionality it has. The DS probably didn't come with a pressure switch, the SM and CX certainly didn't in original guise.

    Cheers, Ken W

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Thanks Shane, this issue has always been there, as far as I know.
    Including immediately after being regassed.
    The system does tend to run for longer if I have the blower on medium rather than high.

    I don't understand why the high pressure with would drop out around town but not on the highway?

    The AC was fitted in Paris, it's not the same as the others I have seen locally. It has a single large condenser that sits flush across the front of the radiator. There is no fan attached to it. There are no condensers or fans located behind the bumper. But perhaps a decent fan in front of the condenser could be helpful, particularly around town.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Thanks Ken,

    I will have a look at it tomorrow and see if I can identify all the components associated with the system. The idea that a particular component is overheating and requires time to cool down makes the most sense. It fits with the constant running when Hwy driving. AC is something I have never turned my attention to for fear of tampering with poisonous gas. But I am keen to try and resolve it having now experienced the system working properly.

  6. #6
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Thanks Shane, this issue has always been there, as far as I know.
    Including immediately after being regassed.
    The system does tend to run for longer if I have the blower on medium rather than high.

    I don't understand why the high pressure with would drop out around town but not on the highway?

    The AC was fitted in Paris, it's not the same as the others I have seen locally. It has a single large condenser that sits flush across the front of the radiator. There is no fan attached to it. There are no condensers or fans located behind the bumper. But perhaps a decent fan in front of the condenser could be helpful, particularly around town.
    The less cooling air you have flowing through the condenser, the higher the pressures on the high side of the system get. So with little airflow and huge heat soak into the engine compartment in town, it is possible the high side pressures will get so extreme, the high pressure safety switch it cut in and switching the compressor off. You will then have no A/C until the switch resets and pressure drop back to a normal level.

    Throw a gauge set on it and see what you get next time it's a hot day after you have been driving in traffic

    Oh, the supplementary electric fan isn't wired backwards ........ so spinning backwards is it

    You can buy the condenser/fan setups from places like vintage air and put down behind the bumpers (used in hotrods etc). I have obviously never looked into any of htis though.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Thanks Shane, this issue has always been there, as far as I know.
    Including immediately after being regassed.
    The system does tend to run for longer if I have the blower on medium rather than high.

    I don't understand why the high pressure with would drop out around town but not on the highway?

    The AC was fitted in Paris, it's not the same as the others I have seen locally. It has a single large condenser that sits flush across the front of the radiator. There is no fan attached to it. There are no condensers or fans located behind the bumper. But perhaps a decent fan in front of the condenser could be helpful, particularly around town.
    We need Robmac to explain the whys and wherefores. . .

    If your set-up is still running the York compressor ditch it!! Very inefficient and has been the cause of cracks in the crankshaft pulley.

    My car uses a Sanden compressor and condenser which as yours sits in front of the radiator, difference may be that my car has the crossflow radiator with the OEM electric fan to assist when in traffic.

    As an aside but perhaps relevant, a good few years back the aircon on the C5 stopped working, I took it to an aircon guy for regassing/inspection to be told there was no head pressure and I needed to attend to the radiator fan. Turned out the fan had gone awol and once replaced without further intervention the aicon was back working. You may need an auxiliary fan for traffic conditions.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Really appreciate the feedback.
    The set up still has the compressor in the standard position. The condenser sits in front of (cross flow) radiator. It has a floor unit in the cabin. Here is a couple of pics that hopefully tell the story a little better.

    "Turned out the fan had gone awol and once replaced without further intervention the aicon was back working. You may need an axillary fan for traffic conditions."

    That's quite possible, I have a few DS's and this car is certainly the hottest of the bunch.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails York A/C Citroen DS-70_ds-14.jpg   York A/C Citroen DS-1970ds21-2.jpg  
    Last edited by mberry; 29th January 2016 at 07:02 PM.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I second ditching the York Compressor.

    Speedie sell a universal bracket for Sandens , which just need to drilled to suit the York mounting.

    Universal Compressor Mounting bracket: Speedy Air Spares
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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Really appreciate the feedback.
    The set up still has the compressor in the standard position. The condenser sits in front of (cross flow) radiator. It has a floor unit in the cabin. Here is a couple of pics that hopefully tell the story a little better.
    Looks like you may have an auxiliary electric fan, the switch is down low on the radiator in your pic, can you tell if it is working and spinning in the right direction?

    Seriously, get rid of that York compressor!!

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Mberry,

    I would have to say that is prettiest engine bay I've ever seen ,just about anywhere. In any veteran car
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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Some serious York haters! How come I never knew? Happy to get rid of it, absolutely no attachment to it at all. Chris, you're right, I will look into that first thing tomorrow. It's entirely possible this car has a compromised aux fan, either spinning backwards or not spinning at all.

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I can assure you will feel the difference if you replace the York reciprocating with a Sankyo/ Sanden swash plate rotary compressor. Not mention the lower absorbed hp from the engine.

    Provided you feel comfortable with around 500 gm of flammable refrigerant, this is one system I would charge with Hychill -30 refrigerant.

    I'd also suggest you have the entire system flushed out thoroughly before fitting the new compressor and replace the filter dryer of course.

    Cleanliness is next to godliness in refrigeration systems. Be suspicious of any technician that doesn't insist on doing this work.
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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    I'm totally enthused about doing whatever is required to have the AC working properly. If that means a new compressor and employing a really good auto refridgeration person to sort out the system, then that's what I will do.
    Clearly the last people I used to regass and check system didn't really embrace the job, despite me asking them to go through the system completely and do whatever they saw fit to do.

    I actually do have the right person in mind, I didn't take the car to him last time because it was easier to use a local specialist. My mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    Some serious York haters! How come I never knew? Happy to get rid of it, absolutely no attachment to it at all. Chris, you're right, I will look into that first thing tomorrow. It's entirely possible this car has a compromised aux fan, either spinning backwards or not spinning at all.
    Add me to the list of YORK haters. As described above they are the cause of camshaft pulleys breaking the pressed belt drive part from the cast splined centres. Never intended to take the sudden clutching loads of the electromagnetic clutch. The vibrations also cause fatigue cracks in the fabricated bracketry that the compressor mounts on near the bell housing. I found the a/c would "freeze up" as the evaporator under the dash plain got clogged with moisture, and airflow stopped. It would go from spitting small bits of ice out the vents to no flow at all. This was the OZ fitted Autoclima unit with the 2 electric fans under the headlight buckets. Those fans are poor quality too. One melted the brush housing. My DS 23 was an auto and the heat sink into the cabin was huge, even the clutch pedal ( parking brake pedal ) became too hot to touch and served to reradiate heat into the footwells. Never was a car more in need of aircon than a DS23 injection auto, but LESS able to drive one.
    Power was reduced by the 3 speed auto, heat sink 9increased and it cooked exhaust side spheres and engine mounts, and the ONLY power take off point for a compressor was the camshaft nose. Even a Renault 16 was more easily converted though with the same power take off problem.

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    When I did my Auto air certification at Richmond TAFE.

    The department had a system with a York Recip compressor made up on a demo frame, driven with an electric motor.

    It was used to demonstrate to the students the symptoms of a stuffed compressor , complete with run main bearing knock.

    And the instructors throw away line was "nearly all of them are like this"

    That was around 1989.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    When I did my Auto air certification at Richmond TAFE.

    The department had a system with a York Recip compressor made up on a demo frame, driven with an electric motor.

    It was used to demonstrate to the students the symptoms of a stuffed compressor , complete with run main bearing knock.

    And the instructors throw away line was "nearly all of them are like this"

    That was around 1989.


    Hahahahhaha, of course.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Even though I have never used the AC on this car until very recently, I did have to remove the compressor and have the bracket welded. not because I wanted the AC but because the unit was loose and required attention. A bit of a pain of a job on the BVH cars as most things can be. However, the cam pulley appears to be in good condition, no signs of excess stress, so that's a positive. Plenty of suggestions here to follow up, will start with the aux fan, simple things first, as always, with these cars.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    robmac,
    the obvious question, given your local knowledge, where would I go?
    I am happy to take almost any task on the DS but this is something that is not covered in any manual I have, and not something I am particularly interested in, and I really do have a list of other jobs I need to attend to on other cars, so certainly something I would prefer to outsource to a reputable 3rd party.
    Certainly not looking for a quick fix or a cheap option, rather a definitive solution that can be executed by someone who specialises in this particular discipline,

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mberry View Post
    robmac,
    the obvious question, given your local knowledge, where would I go?
    I am happy to take almost any task on the DS but this is something that is not covered in any manual I have, and not something I am particularly interested in, and I really do have a list of other jobs I need to attend to on other cars, so certainly something I would prefer to outsource to a reputable 3rd party.
    Certainly not looking for a quick fix or a cheap option, rather a definitive solution that can be executed by someone who specialises in this particular discipline,
    I've been out of Auto air too long to recommend anyone. I'm sadly out of touch.

    On the bright side it a very basic system any competent and methodical technician with a good grounding in theory could easily sort.

    The major problem I fear will be finding a person who really cares enough to make his works consistent with the owners expectation and
    follow suit with the rest of the car.

    Perhaps you could ask around the Citroen restorers and get a recommendation.

    You would be capable of fitting up the new compressor and replacing condenser fan - that's follow your nose work. I'd do that myself.

    I'll try to make some inquiries.
    Last edited by robmac; 29th January 2016 at 09:06 PM.

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    Interesting opinions about York. Eons ago I was involved with large centrifugal chillers - York and Trane. I can't see this being solved without test gauges. This may provide preliminary help -
    York A/C Citroen DS-ac.jpg

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    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seasink View Post
    Interesting opinions about York. Eons ago I was involved with large centrifugal chillers - York and Trane. I can't see this being solved without test gauges. This may provide preliminary help -
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	ac.jpg 
Views:	693 
Size:	92.7 KB 
ID:	80030
    Don't compare York (or Trane) Semi Hermetics to the crap YORK recips used in vehicles.. They are entirely different beasts For entirely different applications.

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    Fellow Frogger! mberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    I've been out of Auto air too long to recommend anyone. I'm sadly out of touch.

    On the bright side it a very basic system any competent and methodical technician with a good grounding in theory could easily sort.

    The major problem I fear will be finding a person who really cares enough to make his works consistent with the owners expectation and
    follow suit with the rest of the car.

    Perhaps you could ask around the Citroen restorers and get a recommendation.

    You would be capable of fitting up the new compressor and replacing condenser fan - that's follow your nose work. I'd do that myself.

    I'll try to make some inquiries.
    I do actually have someone in mind that fits the criteria you have outlined, he is well versed in Rolls Royce refridgeration. I should have taken the car to him originally, now I know there is hope, I will seek him out. Thankfully will have another car roadworthy shortly which will allow me to take the ds21 off the road for a while. Ball joints need doing so it should all come together.

  24. #24
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your pursuit of premium restoration work.

  25. #25
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    I wouldn't be too hard on your A/C guy. It sounds like he has done well getting the A/C working within the original design constraints of the system. now if you approached him and asked him how to improve it's efficiency as it's not upto its task in hot weather (it probably wasn't when the car was new either). He would probalby suggest similar to the above suggestions.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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