Bungling Amateurs, C4 HDI injector, please help
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Thread: Bungling Amateurs, C4 HDI injector, please help

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Default Bungling Amateurs, C4 HDI injector, please help

    Ok... lets start with a rant:
    Why on earth did anyone ever think it was a good idea to put a computer and electronics in a car?

    The Scenario:
    We live in rural NSW, so its sort of remote-ish. My wife is a school teacher, so needs a comfy, economic, reliable aircon car to commute 50km each way 5 days. So after 20 years of Dees and 8 years of Xantia, we bought a new car! Had to be a Cit..... So its a 2007 C4 1.6 HDI manual.
    Perfect, except the suspension is rather harsh, and I bought the wrong colour. She wanted anything except Grey.... so I got ........Dark Grey.
    Its been pretty good, all the plasticky bits broke, rear left window drive failed, headlamp globes last about 1 year only, glove box is firmly shut with broken handle, after she jammed it full of "stuff".
    Key plip failed ages ago... a new battery lasts about 1.5 days.... manual locking failed after another year,

    I replaced the brake pads for the first time at 220,000km!

    The Problem:
    Last year (or the year before) it started the stinky fumes in cabin caper.
    Me, with head in sand, thinks its a leaky valve cover, no probs, it doesn't matter.
    Its a modern car with plastic covers on everything, to prevent unauthorised entry, and support the denialists.
    After 6 months (or maybe a year) of that, it developed the choof choof.
    Then just before Christmas the thermo fan got all wobbly, and chucked it in...... and the turbo isn't working.

    Of course my attendance at AF has been spasmodic at best. I had no idea about the frequency or cause or repercussions of any of this.
    If you want to discuss early DS hydraulics... I'm your man, If you want to know how to replace a broken suspension spring in your 2CV.... ask me, if you need adaptor plates to connect 2CV drive shafts to GS transmission outputs.... I can make them for you............
    BUT, If it involves whizzing electrons to make lights flash, and things to go ping, and widgets to Whirrr...
    I'm not interested.

    So with 2 weeks 'til school goes back, I reckon its time to fix it..... a bit.

    So, I find a you tube on removing an injector, make the tools, tighten the 3 non choof choof injectors, disassemble and remove the choof choof one, clean it up, make a new copper washer (turned from 16mm copper bar, and annealed) reassemble the injector (including the 2 VERY TINY spacer bits), hook it up, prime the fuel bulb.... crank, crank, crank, crank......crank, crank, crank, crank......crank, crank, crank, crank......crank, crank, crank, crank......crank, crank, crank, crank......crank, crank, crank, crank......

    Advertisement


    OK, so what have I missed ! Is there a computer thing that knows that I'm not authorised to fiddle, therefore it won't co-operate, until I pay 2 dozen clams to a "trained" professional?

    I offered to rebuild a Dee for her, Or another 1220 powered 2CV ****WITH AIRCON*****
    and she even said something about getting a Toyota.

    Please Help!

    Bob
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  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Is it immobilised ? ... You might need that broken "plip" thing working to get the car to start your using the cars key, and not a spare you had cut right (if you get a key cut it won't work unless you program the keys transponder into the car).

    seeya
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
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    Proper cars--
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    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
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  3. #3
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    How would I rocognise "immobilised" ?

    Yeah, its F.....n going nowhere!

    It has worked for years with the original key (with flat battery), why would it change its mind now?

    The key turns the car on, the lights come on..... except the main central screen, ie the white speedo one up on the dash... it stays blank. and it cranks...... is that "immobilised"?

    F.....n bloody modern plastic 'puter driven pile o shit.

    Not Happy Jan!

  4. #4
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    So I put a new battery in the key plip... it works, locks and unlocks the car OK no difference to the starting or 'puter screens.

    I'll try blanking off the fuel inlet to the injector that I had apart..... maybe I didn't get the assembly quite right, and it allowing high bypass flow... so the rail pressure doesn't get up to normal, so none of the injectors work. If it runs on 3.... then I'll know the problem is in the one I "fixed".

    Standby.......

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Ok, I haven't blanked the fuel to the sus injector yet.... but will...

    I put clear plastic tubes on the fuel return fittings on the top of the injectors.
    These return the outflow from the pilot valve of the injector control piston...... which should be small amount at each firing of the injector.

    The sus one outflows about 50 times as much as the others together... I guess thats full flow of the HP fuel pump.
    So the other injectors aren't getting pressure..... so obviously I assembled it wrongly.
    There are some very small precision bits inside, and 2 VERY TINY spacer bits.... and springs and jumpy out bits.... its very scary...
    I can't seem to find assembly instructions, or a internals diagram of the particular Bosch injector....

    I might have to pull another one apart... with more care... to see the correct assembly.... and make notes
    But I only have 3 more to try that with.... I'd better learn quickly !

    Maybe I can't really blame bloody 'puters...... but I will anyway...

    Its like logging into AF after a year or 2.... can't remember login name or password... use up all the allowed tries....

    Bob

  6. #6
    Fellow Frogger!
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    Default School Teachers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    My wife is a school teacher, so needs a comfy, economic, reliable aircon car to commute 50km each way 5 days. So after 20 years of Dees and 8 years of Xantia, we bought a new car! Had to be a Cit..... So its a 2007 C4 1.6 HDI manual.
    Perfect, except the suspension is rather harsh, and I bought the wrong colour. She wanted anything except Grey.... so I got ........Dark Grey.
    Its been pretty good, all the plasticky bits broke, rear left window drive failed, headlamp globes last about 1 year only, glove box is firmly shut with broken handle, after she jammed it full of "stuff".
    Hi Bob - I also am married to a School Teacher, you are now my new friend and have my full sympathy and personal empathy.

    After thirty years, I now know about the importance of colour and "how things look" This was your first mistake Bob, you purchased Dark Grey!
    I fully understand about "stuff" in vehicles, our 307 estate is a mobile teachers resource Tardis.
    I have a garage, shed, study and other storage mostly taken over with her "stuff". Hasn't been used for 20 years, but for some reason she will "need" it one day!!!
    And don't get me going about silly Report Writing Season, and spelling and lesson plans, I find its best to suddenly need to go interstate for work, it's much more sane!!

    My suggestion is to concentrate on the vehicle as that is something that is logical and can be changed and fixed. School Teachers can't.
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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Thanks Whippet,

    I'd better not complain about her stuff..... Its mostly confined to her office.............. and our bedroom, my office, the laundry extension, the verandah on the laundry extension, the carport, any spare space in my shed (about 20%).

    My stuff however occupies 80% of my shed, about 1/2 acre beside my shed, and another acre in our bush paddock. We have 100 acres, and she kindly allows me 2 acres in which to contain my stuff, which includes about 35 retired Cits and significant quantities of old agricultural and industrial stuff.

    Back to her car.....

    Some progress, I blanked the inlet of the sus injector...... and now it runs on 3..... sort of.

    Is there a limiter that keeps to just 1500 rpm when things aren't right?

    Anyway, I'll pull the sus injector out again, and just to double the problem, I'll pull another one apart, and out to make notes on correct assembly.

    It'd be easier with some notes and pics..........

    Bob

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    My wife escaped science teaching 20 years ago. All the teaching stuff went years ago right? Well...... Boxes of empty folders. Bookshelves of 1970s science texts. Folders..... But, it is also true that I have far more car stuff, just that it is focussed on a couple of bookshelves, the workshop and the extended garage, albeit interspersed a bit with boxes of spare jars, folders, etc. And we are steadily working through the clutter. Both of us, each with our own....

    I think I envy you the paddock Bob. Not completely sure. The C4 must have seemed a step backwards in comfort after the Xantia. Wasn't it yours that popped a front strut mount just after you'd pulled off the road and stopped to answer a phone call?

    Good luck with the C4. You're braver than I am - not that our "moderns" have done this to us (yet?). I always find these threads fascinating learning opportunities, but without the pain of course.
    JohnW

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Thanks John, brave or reckless? or stupid?

    I have found the problem..... thanks to you tube and a guy in Ukraine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52vx2Gvimhw

    This clip shows nice tools, explains critical measurements, and includes some bosch diagrams and cutaways showing correct assembly.

    So now I see that I'm missing a VERY TINY ball from the pilot valve. I didn't see it during disassembly, and who knows where it is now?

    I'll have to pull another one apart to measure the ball (its probably about 1mm) .... then scour all my stuff for a mini ball bearing (thinking model aeroplane engine.... I've got a few) to see if I can match the ball.

    If not, mmmmm !

    I see that a lot of the you tubes are put up by professional workshops..... and show all nice expensive tools, and show disassembly, without showing all the tiny tricky bits.
    I reckon they like to encourage bungling amateurs to have a go.... miss a vital bit, stuff it up, and come shamefully for help.
    When someone has stuffed up they are more willing to pay more for "professional" help.

    We'll see about that!

    Bob

  10. #10
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Hello Bob,

    I may not feel your pain but I hope you feel my sympathy.

    If all that is going wrong with Jan's C4 there must be others giving more grief. I imagine they are cheap enough now. Maybe time for a parts C4 or two.

    Roger

  11. #11
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    OK, the missing ball is 1.5mm diameter....... now that might seem big enough to keep track of, but its not. It is by far the smallest car part that I've ever seen. Smaller than a pin head, smaller than (but looks exactly like) a speck of weld spatter from my mig.

    So the search is on for another.

    I wonder if Xantia petrol injectors have a similar ball in their pilot valves?

    I guess i'm about to find out.

    Standby.......

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    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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  13. #13
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Yeah.... I rang a guy in Woolongong yesterday, advertising on gumtree, a statuary write off (exact same model, 2007 diesel manual) that has had a minor front end bingle. Its even the right colour... nice red.
    At this stage its complete except for headlights and front plastic. bonnet has minor bend.
    Its only 80,000km. he wants an offer.

    I discussed it with Jan, and we thought that if I can keep the current C4 going for a little while yet without spending too much on it we'll look carefully at what next.

    I'm pretty sure I don't like working on modern plastic n 'puter stuff.

    I think I should cut a GS into a ute, and build a removeable canopy for the tray...... and put modern aircon on it somehow, and paint it blue or yellow or red or green....

    The requirements are:
    C4 fuel economy or better,
    Good aircon,
    Softer ride than C4
    Big boot for bales of hay and bags of cattle feed, or boxes of food for catering,
    Ability to handle rocks in the paddock, that's what killed the Xantia... hole in the sump !
    Any colour except grey !

  14. #14
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    lifes simple when your wife has a car she likes..... How about a new Renault clio with 5years warranty .... ..... Could you ever imagine the boss women happy in another car we have er, "almost', finished .....

    Can you move the straight bits from yours to the low milage wreck and start driving it ? 80,000 is hardly run in !

    Modern berlingos and kangoos are pretty good things ................... if you only need two seats!

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    You already have a Citroen ute, although perhaps a little larger than you were thinking. It just needs an engine transplant.

    I can just see Jan cruising to town in the C35.

    Roger

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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'll credit you with "brave"!

    Had you thought of making lots of spatter balls and measuring them up till you get the right size?

    You seem to have space for a parts car......

    My ex-teacher wife adores her manual Scenic FWIW. I reckon it is excellent and rides reasonably well to boot. Cubbyholes galore too!

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1951
    Renault R8 1965
    Renault Scenic 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic 2007 (mine)
    Renault Scenic 2006 (daughter's)
    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    MMMMMMmmmm,
    John, I did go to the welding "bay" and found several hundred spatter balls, some were quite round, pretty good for size and very tempting.
    But are they round enough to make the pilot valve work properly? And, what damage would it do to the precision seat ? How long would it work for ?
    I'll ask at the Tamworth diesel specialist tomorrow.... he has a Bosch sticker on his window, surely he'd sell me a ball.
    My experience with these guys is not good, that's why I "had a go" at it myself.
    And came unstuck, a bit. Certainly I'd try it again, now that I know to look out for the ball.

    Yes Shane, we did discuss Berlingo.... we do only need 2 seats. I'm not sure about paddock rock clearance.

    And Roger, yes the C35 frequently occupies my thoughts, I'd love to have it going again. I have considered many engine options, ranging from bringing one from france, to fitting a whole east west unit from anything. The biggest issue is gearing, for a vehicle that can carry almost 2 tons, and really only wants a top speed of 110, and has 16" light truck wheels. The original engine was only 75hp, 2.1 Diesel. Later ones had 2.5.
    Still it would not be a suitable daily for Jan.

    Bob
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  18. #18
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    Run a magnet (e.g. old speaker cone) over the floor and pick up everything small and round. You might find the missing ball.

    If you can't find the correct ball as a spare part, the same injector would have been used in Pugs and some Fords, so you might be able to find a scrap injector (damaged when removed??) that way. Maybe, the local Ford mechanic/dealer?

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    I'm pretty sure I don't like working on modern plastic n 'puter stuff.
    It's pre-2000 for you then. Apart from the aircon, you seem to need a 2CV.

  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    Its ceramic

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Its ceramic
    It will be the one left behind then. Easy!

  22. #22
    Fellow Frogger! Buttercup's Avatar
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    OK, I went to Tamworth and visited the diesel specialist.
    They initially denied any ability to help, suggested that I had been foolish in the extreme, to attempt such a thing.
    They never open a Bosch CR injector, and only supply new replacement injectors.
    BTW why did I take it apart ? Didn't I know, its impossible to reassemble ?

    After a bit of conversation, explaining the reasoning, describing my tool making, discussing the magic secrets of how it works, and after significant prodding from me, they rang Bosch, who immediately obliged.

    A packet of 10 balls is coming in an express satchel from Bosch (Sydney).
    The delivery cost is 20 times the value of the part.
    I will have 9 spare balls, in case anyone needs one in the future.

    If it all works, I can write a "How To Be A Bungling Amateur, Like Me (and get away with it!)" for the AF archives.

    I'll be well satisfied if we can get the C4 to 300,000km without spending thousands on it.
    That would equate to;
    10c per km for the purchase of the new car,
    10c per km for fuel,
    3c per km for rego/insurance,
    2c per km for tyres/servicing/maintenance/parts.

    25c per km......... I reckon that's OK

    Bob

  23. #23
    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    Good work, Bob! 9 spare balls, that sounds like the 99 spare EPDM o-rings.

    How much per km for the hair transplant after you have torn all yours out?

    Roger

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Wilkinson View Post
    Good work, Bob! 9 spare balls, that sounds like the 99 spare EPDM o-rings.

    How much per km for the hair transplant after you have torn all yours out?

    Roger
    And the day you again need an 'O'ring.... You won't be able to find the bag of them so will buy another 100 ..... And go place them on a shelf somewhere so they won't get lost this time .......... And all being normal will place the bag of 99 'O'rings ontop of the last bag of 99 'O'rings ......................

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
    Proper cars--
    '85 Series II CX2500 GTi Turbo I
    '63 ID19 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90325
    '72 DS21 ie 5spd pallas (last looked at ... about 15years ago)
    '78 GS1220 pallas
    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

    Yay ... No Slugomatics


    Modern Junk:
    '07 Poogoe 407 HDi 6spd manual

  25. #25
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post

    The requirements are:
    C4 fuel economy or better,
    Good aircon,
    Softer ride than C4
    Big boot for bales of hay and bags of cattle feed, or boxes of food for catering,
    Ability to handle rocks in the paddock, that's what killed the Xantia... hole in the sump !
    Any colour except grey !
    Excellent thread Bob, love the bravado. There is no car that meets all the criteria unfortunately. Your location makes it more difficult. The Xantia comes closest, the sump problem was probably a one off ( why did you not raise the suspension?). Just prepare the car with a replacement of all hydraulic return lines and a good going over. That is what we have done with ours after 12 years of ownership and she is going as good as new. Should get high 6s in country running. Much cheaper than buying a C4 too.

    Thinking about it, there might be one available soon that meats all the criteria, C4 Cactus. We don't know about the ride yet though, although overseas reports offer some hope.
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

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