The elusive "DS-ness"
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Thread: The elusive "DS-ness"

  1. #1
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Default The elusive "DS-ness"

    Got hold of a copy of an old " Thouroughbred & Classic car" mag where the writer mentions a garage in Poland that specializes in restoring DSs.

    Te owner mentions that when a D arrives they "take it for a short drive to see whether it has the requisite "DS-ness" and is worthy of restoration." How unbelievably true is this ? Mind boggling.

    I am actually a bit puzzled by this as I have also experienced the difference between different D's where some just don't have that D-ness and others do.
    Sometimes it has nothing to do with the amount of maintenance or expense, some absolutely hard driven cars, poorly maintained are full of Dness, whilst other spoilt with large sums of money cannot render this elusive quality.

    I describe it (poorly) as a combined feeling of lightness, response, confort and strength but also it has the ability to instantly put you in state of bliss and the wish to sit there and drive forever.

    Can anyone describe this feeling more appropriately and how to achieve it in a not so Dness DS.
    What is it?

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    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  2. #2
    Contented Peugeot Driver addo's Avatar
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    Are you saying it can be imparted to cars formerly lacking; a sort of "Detachable Deeness"?
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    A feeling of sense and security you cannot get anywhere else.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

  4. #4
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by addo View Post
    Are you saying it can be imparted to cars formerly lacking; a sort of "Detachable Deeness"?
    That's exactly the question ! Can it or can it not ? Is it produced originally at the factory where the sum total of the parts create a magic car and 5 cars down the assembly line they create a dog......how can it be ?
    You need to have driven some of these cars to appreciate the difference between a DS and a DSness DS.....
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

  5. #5
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    When I first got my 21... well, yes, you could say it was suffering slightly from DS-less-ness
    But I've been at it, and it's not DSless at all now, even though... it's not quite...

    Take my '68 semi-franken ID.
    That's got enough DSness for three cars.
    To the point of having a fuel tank that produces enough rust for three cars
    But, it comes from a rare combination of steering and suspension suppleness with a special engine grunt and a very smooth gearbox.
    The engine is a DY3 ('70s DSuper/Special) with a 21 carb. Vroarr.
    But the steering...
    Before I changed it, the HP pump wasn't cycling very often at all.
    After I put the new (used) one in, it cycles pretty often, the car takes more time to rise and less to settle, but... it's sooo supple. Perfect.
    So that box has just the right amount of internal leak to increase DSness by orders of magnitude.

    The 21, though it's getting a lot of 'ness back, is not quite as supple.
    The hydraulics are too good

  6. #6
    Thank God for my Hydroen harrisson_citroen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    When I first got my 21... well, yes, you could say it was suffering slightly from DS-less-ness
    But I've been at it, and it's not DSless at all now, even though... it's not quite...

    Take my '68 semi-franken ID.
    That's got enough DSness for three cars.
    To the point of having a fuel tank that produces enough rust for three cars
    But, it comes from a rare combination of steering and suspension suppleness with a special engine grunt and a very smooth gearbox.
    The engine is a DY3 ('70s DSuper/Special) with a 21 carb. Vroarr.
    But the steering...
    Before I changed it, the HP pump wasn't cycling very often at all.
    After I put the new (used) one in, it cycles pretty often, the car takes more time to rise and less to settle, but... it's sooo supple. Perfect.
    So that box has just the right amount of internal leak to increase DSness by orders of magnitude.

    The 21, though it's getting a lot of 'ness back, is not quite as supple.
    The hydraulics are too good
    Yes, so here is an interesting point: Is it that through slight mis-adjustments and differences in settings within the hydraulics in some cars this almost human or animal like characteristics can be achieved. I guess with the multitude of variations possible only some vehicles achieve greatness.....
    DS Un jour, DS toujours !

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    A video seen by many on this forum no doubt But have another look. I think it goes somewhere towards describing the feeling of D--ness. Anyway it's nice to start the year on a good note.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6CS9eBn0O8

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanadoo View Post
    A video seen by many on this forum no doubt But have another look. I think it goes somewhere towards describing the feeling of D--ness. Anyway it's nice to start the year on a good note.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6CS9eBn0O8
    Great little video thanks Tony. I love both of these cars. I'd have a Tesla in a heartbeat but $150,000 is just a little out of my price bracket right now.
    I had a DS about 25 years ago, and I still see it occasionally at the CCCV Concours event, where it's current owner ( Peter ) occasionally brings it to allow others to admire it.

    Maybe the perfect car would be a DS or even a C5 with a TESLA upgrade... I'll have to look into this...
    Cheers..
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  9. #9
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Probably relates to how well all the parts are working together. I remember getting a loan CX when Continentals had our first CX in for service. It had faded green paint, was a carby c-matic compared to our injection one but the way it drove - beautifully. It was 100% CXness
    Mine

    CX Prestige
    Toyota Prius

    In the family

    Xantia SX

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    A friend of mine had a DS21 bvh, which I was the guardian for a couple of years. It lacked the dsness. The cause for this was simple. Wrong tyres, CX spheres and snatchy gear change. The tired carby engine also added to the lack of driving enjoyment. I believe the subsequent owner corrected all this and I imagine restored its dsness with those simple restorations.

    To say a DS never possessed dsness or has for ever lost its dsness like some sort of spirit is sales spin. More a kin for the religious folk. A properly fully restored DS will be a true DS.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IE23 View Post
    A friend of mine had a DS21 bvh, which I was the guardian for a couple of years. It lacked the dsness. The cause for this was simple. Wrong tyres, CX spheres and snatchy gear change. The tired carby engine also added to the lack of driving enjoyment. I believe the subsequent owner corrected all this and I imagine restored its dsness with those simple restorations.

    To say a DS never possessed dsness or has for ever lost its dsness like some sort of spirit is sales spin. More a kin for the religious folk. A properly fully restored DS will be a true DS.
    Indeed. This whole thing sounds like a nice throwaway line for the magazine, not anything based on reality.
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  12. #12
    Fellow Frogger! Middlemoon.1's Avatar
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    Yes I would like to think the challenge for the enthusiast restorer help a DS reveal its DS-Ness in full glory....surely the potential is in every DS that's not rusted away! Time, curiosity, patience.

  13. #13
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    My 2c worth... I think DSness is...

    Fully gassed removable damper spheres (correctly set)
    Tight ball joints, tie rod ends and suspension bearings
    Heights correctly set with responsive height correctors
    A non internally leaking and correctly set up steering rack
    XAS/XVS tyres
    Correctly adjusted BVH change with a quiet gearbox and working synchros
    Correctly adjusted rear drum shoes
    Fresh engine with good power and minimal tappet noise
    Non wobbly brake disks
    Steering column correct adjusted as well as the centering device.
    and
    A grinning owner.



    Cheers,

    Mark....

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brycedunn View Post
    Indeed. This whole thing sounds like a nice throwaway line for the magazine, not anything based on reality.
    Not in my experience. . .
    I had the privilege of driving or riding in identically specified cars almost off the showroom floor, they were very individual as harrisson_citroen alludes. At the time Arthur Lewis (Sterling Motors Wynnum) had a knack of bringing out the best in cars under his care. D-ness can be nurtured into a D but don't presume all cars had it from the factory.

    The best D I owned was a shabby '67 Safari and nothing has come close since, and I've had a few and tweaked a few, they are not born equal - which in some respects is part of the appeal.

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! Boyracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    My 2c worth... I think DSness is...

    Fully gassed removable damper spheres (correctly set)
    Tight ball joints, tie rod ends and suspension bearings
    Heights correctly set with responsive height correctors
    A non internally leaking and correctly set up steering rack
    XAS/XVS tyres
    Correctly adjusted BVH change with a quiet gearbox and working synchros
    Correctly adjusted rear drum shoes
    Fresh engine with good power and minimal tappet noise
    Non wobbly brake disks
    Steering column correct adjusted as well as the centering device.
    and
    A grinning owner.



    Cheers,

    Mark....
    And doors that go ka-ching when they close instead of clunk.
    Cheers,
    Michael

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  16. #16
    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    I like this topic.
    Got me thinking.
    Because obviously, it's personal. But it is very elusive.

    Like the ID19 with the just-leaky-enough steering, which reflects on the overall suspension, and, by some elusive ;·) magic, makes it more fun to drive than the perfectly tuned 21 Pallas... where the 21 has XVSs front and Avon rears, and the 19 has 205 Firestones front and 165 Carrefour rears...

    I guess, for me - and I have driven about a score DS/IDs - it has to be... well... "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike"... you know

  17. #17
    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I guess, for me - and I have driven about a score DS/IDs - it has to be... well... "almost, but not quite, entirely unlike"... you know
    I think you may have just put your finger on it. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  18. #18
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    bit early in the year for an existential crisis

    we simultaneously had three - all going - for a few years about a decade ago

    DS21 bvh Pallas with Webasto sunroof
    DS23 non Pallas 5 speed EFI
    DS23 Safari 5 speed carbie

    blindfolded as a passenger you would easily know which car you were in by the feel of the ride

    the DS21 was a cruiser
    the DS23 efi was a racer
    the Safari was a worker

    if cars can have a soul, Citroen found the way to install it

    cheers

    jon

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