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  1. #1
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Default no luck at wreckers today

    Hi Froggers, my friend had a look around today for a ZF 4HP20 transmission and had no luck so far. It's to go in his 2003 C5 V6. I don't suppose anyone here would have a spare one? I phoned one wrecker and was given a very offhanded attitude, along the lines of " those cars are crap, those gear boxes all break down, we don't have any" blah blah blah... and wouldn't even suggest a ballpark price.
    Not much help at all.
    Would there be any 'ISSUES' from fitting the same model of transmission if it came from a diesel rather than a 3 lt petrol one? I guess the diff ratio might be different.

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    Cheers... George 1/8th.

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Face it, those cars are crap, those gear boxes all break down.
    addo and Hotrodelectric like this.
    Michael
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    (**glares sideways at Michaelr**) Do you know why he needs a transmission? Wouldn't something from a comparable Peugeot fit?

    The big problem with modern automatics is because of competing demands for compactness, lighter weight, more features and an extended range of ratios in cars that are nearly as heavy as anything built in the '60's and '70'. The parts are correspondingly lighter, thinner, smaller, and far less able to take the stresses. Your buddy might be better off finding a rebuildable core and going from there. He'll spend a bit, but it'll be a fresh transmission.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    George, the car doesn't drive, you have to take the gearbox out regardless, so if you plan to go for the jugular right off, maybe start there and see what you have to work with already. As already suggested, it may just be a blocked pickup and a damaged pump. If you buy a used gearbox from a wreck, the odds are it's going the same way already.

    There are different flavours of 4HP20. Comparing the V6 version with a diesel version, the ECU will be different, the converter will be different and the C&P ratio will be different and so might be the case and some of the other internals. You might get a good pump from a wrecked 2.2HDi 4 speed C5 as the engine sucking in coolant is usually what kills them well before the gearbox fails. I know there are also detail differences between Xantia/XM and C5 variants, even with the ES9 engine, but most of the internals will be the same. Didn't Sherman have a couple of dead Xantia V6s and maybe a C5 he wanted to part out or dispose of? Maybe, ask him as a start as he's at least in your town? The 406/7 V6 may well use the same version of 4HP20 as it was possible to code the C5 V6 4HP20 with Pug software to alter the lockup behaviour, but you'd need to check the ZF model number.
    Last edited by David S; 11th October 2015 at 01:41 AM.
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  5. #5
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    I have 2 spare 4HP 20 boxes from Xantias you are welcome to have
    But they are still in the cars on a farm near Edgerton - Ballarat way
    The ECU s on Xantias are "swappable" so it's a possibility
    Phone if you like 0413 414 415

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    Hi George 1/8th,
    Just a reminder that with an auto it is usually considered important to trouble shoot it while it is in the car and its vital organs can be operated and tested. So if you want to rebuild it later then you might have a better idea what to look at as you go.
    Good luck jaahn
    I say this only because a modern transmission is complicated, as is the C5, and ultimately ANYTHING MAY BE WRONG and to replace a transmission and find that something else is the problem is a real turnoff !!

  7. #7
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    Hi Froggers, my friend had a look around today for a ZF 4HP20 transmission and had no luck so far. It's to go in his 2003 C5 V6. I don't suppose anyone here would have a spare one? I phoned one wrecker and was given a very offhanded attitude, along the lines of " those cars are crap, those gear boxes all break down, we don't have any" blah blah blah... and wouldn't even suggest a ballpark price.
    Not much help at all.
    Would there be any 'ISSUES' from fitting the same model of transmission if it came from a diesel rather than a 3 lt petrol one? I guess the diff ratio might be different.

    Cheers... George 1/8th.
    Don't know if Renault Lag are compatible. If so there is one here:

    Wrecking Renault 02-05

  8. #8
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hi Sherman, thanks for the kind offer. I'm not sure a Xantia 4HP20 would be close enough. Are either of them from V6 Xantias? I really appreciate the suggestion. I will get back to you if need be. I might phone you anyway since you obviously are a person of enormous great taste and integrity being a Xantia and C5 owner.
    Cheers.... George 1/8th

  9. #9
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Hi Jaahn, thanks for the helpful suggestion. I drove the car about 20 ks, from the purchase point to the new owners house. When we test drove the car it seemed to all work ok, never got it up to a full 70ks ( legal speed limit in the area) so it never went into top gear. It was a little noisy though in the lower gears. Maybe it had suffered an oil leak for some reason and therefore was running dry.
    As soon as it got up to a speed where it was time to go into 4th, there was NO 4th. It was more like neutral. No idea why it did this, maybe oil was too low , or wrong type..or a faulty electrovalve. Or a blocked gear valve. We stopped to put in some petrol. Within about 4 ks, stopped at the lights. It felt like it took off in 3rd, really slow to get going and a continual slipping sound. It felt like a manual with a slipping clutch. The engine would rev easily but the power would not get to the wheels, only felt like about 25% of the power was getting to the ground, or less. Then, we were faced by a steep hill, and couldn't get up the hill. Had to park it quickly in the gutter. We waited about 1/2 an hour for it to cool down, and were able to limp it all the way home, very slow getting to start from a stop at lights, but RAN PERFECTLY once it got into 3rd. Still no 4th. When we stopped , the proud new owner who had been following in his good car , said he could smell the clutch plates as they burned in the transmission.
    Nice. Maybe a rebuild kit would be the way to go. Not sure yet. We are thinking now if we can find a cheap unit from the wreckers it could be a good starting point.

  10. #10
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Thanks David S.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    Hi Sherman, thanks for the kind offer. I'm not sure a Xantia 4HP20 would be close enough. Are either of them from V6 Xantias? I really appreciate the suggestion. I will get back to you if need be. I might phone you anyway since you obviously are a person of enormous great taste and integrity being a Xantia and C5 owner.
    Cheers.... George 1/8th
    They are basically the same V6
    Ratios would be completely compatible as it is a "trans axle"

  12. #12
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robmac View Post
    Don't know if Renault Lag are compatible. If so there is one here:

    Wrecking Renault 02-05
    Thanks Robmac, this link seems to be out of action just now. Maybe their server is down or they are updating their site. But thanks, theres a good chance that several different car makers use the same basic ZF 4HP20. cheers

  13. #13
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman View Post
    They are basically the same V6
    Ratios would be completely compatible as it is a "trans axle"
    thanks Sherman, I see what you are saying. I'll see what I can find out. I'll let RLM know what you have said. It's pretty generous of you. Is that Mt Egerton? Cheers.

  14. #14
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    Yes and one of the boxes I took out of a Xantia a couple of years ago so it already for pick up
    If your mate decides it's a solution give me a call and I shall give you the address details

  15. #15
    Demannu-facturing! Demannu's Avatar
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    The V6 transmissions are all interchangeable between the Peugeot and Citroen V6s that used that gearbox, so that would include 406 V6, 407 V6 up to 2004, 607 up to 2004, Citroen Xantia, Citroen C5 V6 up to 2004. Diesels have a different bellhousing and final drive.

    After 2000(ish) there were apparently some changes to the transmissions to make improvements to rectify failures that were beginning to show at around 160,000km.

    I have a spare transmission/torque converter/ecu from a known good 2003 model car (that was involved in a minor accident). It's in Brisbane though.
    Scotty

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  16. #16
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    The Mechanics Handbooks show the same C&P of 20x69 for ES9/4HP20 Xantia, XM and C5.

    The speedo drive is different for the; 59x68 for the C5 and 20x16 for the Xantia/XM
    You would want to swap the speedo drive gear.

    Gearbox tags are given as:
    Xantia 20 HZ XX
    XM 20 HZ YY
    C5 20 HZ 13

    One change will be the deletion of the dipstick. In the XM, this was from RP 8201 and the ZF gearbox number changed from 1019 000 017 to 1019 000 046. The XM parts list is pictured.

    no luck at wreckers today-xm_4hp20.jpg

    For Xantia V6, these are respectively 1019 000 13 and 1019 000 44, changing from RP 8206. The parts list gives the speedo gear set as 61x66 for Xantia V6, different to what the mechanics handbook shows.

    The C5 uses a gearbox marked HZ26 per the parts list, not HZ13 per the mechanics handbook. The commentary for the converter parts list giving ZF numbers 1019 000 40 and 1019 000 54.
    no luck at wreckers today-c5_4hp20.jpg

    Xantia and XM use the same torque converter, apparently marked Z33, Citroen part 2001A3.
    The C5 uses two different converters, V41 or G51, depending on the gearbox used, per:

    no luck at wreckers today-c5_4hp20_tc.jpg

    The C5 uses a 210hp engine vs the Xantia/XM 194hp version, so the converter would likely differ slightly for that reason. I don't know what else might be the same or differ, but you could dig through the parts info to see if any gear sets and clutches differ significantly.
    Last edited by David S; 11th October 2015 at 08:17 PM.
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  17. #17
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Thankyou Scotty, very helpful information. Cheers...

  18. #18
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Thankyou David,
    once again most helpful, amazing information. Cheers... George.

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    Fellow Frogger! Greg's Avatar
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    Hi,

    The gearbox isn't crap, It's actually very good, and was used in the Xantia as well.

    The biggest problem is not changing the gearbox oil.

    Best regards,

    Greg
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  20. #20
    1000+ Posts robmac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Hi,

    The gearbox isn't crap, It's actually very good, and was used in the Xantia as well.

    The biggest problem is not changing the gearbox oil.

    Best regards,

    Greg
    Which is entirely understandable, since the manufacturer states , the gear box is "sealed for life".

    With dozens of threads about AL4/ DPO problems here on AF. Many owners may have a a differing opinion of "very good".

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Surely the French taxi industry has worked out a sensible maintenance schedule to allow very high mileage with these transmissions. They must have many thousands of units in their fleets. Can anyone seek out some taxi contacts with the right knowledge?

    This "sealed for life" claim is valid as often the failure of the 'box signals the end of life for the vehicle.
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    Michael
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  22. #22
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    Good point Michael. Apparently ZF recommend top ups every 60,000KS....makes sense. It's only CitroŽn who claim it's maintenance free.

    Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk

  23. #23
    1000+ Posts George 1/8th's Avatar
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    A quick question.. is there a suitable alternative to LDS? Eg fully synthetic penrite?

    Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk

  24. #24
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George 1/8th View Post
    A quick question.. is there a suitable alternative to LDS? Eg fully synthetic penrite?

    Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk
    I found a few alternatives here:

    poogoe electric power steering

    Penrite LDAS should be the one though.

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  25. #25
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    EAI sell a Ferodo version of both LDS and LHM. The LHM is about $13/lt and the LDS is not that much dearer from memory. Ask them You don't need much LDS in the overall scheme of things.

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