DS23ie HP pump cycling every 4 seconds
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Thread: DS23ie HP pump cycling every 4 seconds

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    Member Pallas74's Avatar
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    Default DS23ie HP pump cycling every 4 seconds

    Hi, looking for a bit of advice for a mate. He's been chasing a suspected leak causing the cycling time to be as much as every 4 seconds. No obvious leaks, no loss of LHM. Cycling time is a healthy 15 seconds when steering is on full lock but when in the driving position the pump cycles every 4 seconds. Only other oddity is that the brake pedal does make a farty noise which might point to a bit of air in the system but copious bleeding hasn't resolved that either.

    Any thoughts on what to check or what might be the culprit?

    Cheers. Pete

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas74 View Post
    Hi, looking for a bit of advice for a mate. He's been chasing a suspected leak causing the cycling time to be as much as every 4 seconds. No obvious leaks, no loss of LHM. Cycling time is a healthy 15 seconds when steering is on full lock but when in the driving position the pump cycles every 4 seconds. Only other oddity is that the brake pedal does make a farty noise which might point to a bit of air in the system but copious bleeding hasn't resolved that either.

    Any thoughts on what to check or what might be the culprit?

    Cheers. Pete
    Re: steering at full lock changes pump cycle time. Time for steering rack re-seal. Typically that problem is caused by a worn Teflon sealing ring in the RU. It is an internal leak in the RU that is stopped when the steering is at full lock. See 844 (Hydraulic Course Notes) pages 21 - 23 to get a better idea of what is going on. Good explanation with mechanical drawings of how the Cit system (D's) works.

    Brake noise - there is gas in the line. Because of the brake accumulator you need to really bleed for a bit of time. Compared to us (US) you are lucky in that you don't (or at least should not) have to deal with the 'anti leak valve' that NA and Switzerland had to deal with . If I had to hazard a guess the problem could well be a dying brake accumulator.

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    1000+ Posts arunine's Avatar
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    Could be a crack in the hydraulic pump swash plate or the accumulator sphere gone flat. I have had both happen to me over the years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arunine View Post
    Could be a crack in the hydraulic pump swash plate or the accumulator sphere gone flat. I have had both happen to me over the years.
    Never seen a cracked swash plate - I think you are referring to an internal crack in the pump body which is a know problem caused by running the car for some time with a flat accumulator sphere. In either case the problem there is the pump, typically, being unable to build up full pressure and/or unable to maintain nominal working pressure at engine idle. Keep in mind that nominal working pressure in a DS is in the 2250 to 2450 psi range. A flat accumulator would not have the system increase its cycle time with the steering at full lock to 15 seconds or so. And a flat accumulator tends to have a very rapid cycle time of 1 to 2 seconds. And an internally leaking RU can easily bleed off the pressure from a good accumulator in 5 seconds or so. If the car in question is also a BVH, that just adds to the problem of pressure loss.

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    I have exactly the same problem with my D special. I have pretty much ruled out accumulator sphere and HP pump because these have been either replaced or rebuilt in recent months. So steering rack is the next in the (hopefully dwindling) line of deferred maintenance items I have left (triaxle, camshaft seal being the main other items).

    The problem is self-evidently a long wearing and gradual one, and I have been reliably informed (by the experts) not to be too concerned about it. Over time, the seals will deteriorate further, and will have to be replaced, but I will wait to combine the re-build of the steering rack with the other jobs once funds are sufficient.

    For those without the skills and equipment, labour costs are a killer! The camshaft seal costs $12, but the labour involved in a gearbox out job...ouch!

    AM

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxvte View Post
    I have exactly the same problem with my D special. I have pretty much ruled out accumulator sphere and HP pump because these have been either replaced or rebuilt in recent months. So steering rack is the next in the (hopefully dwindling) line of deferred maintenance items I have left (triaxle, camshaft seal being the main other items).

    The problem is self-evidently a long wearing and gradual one, and I have been reliably informed (by the experts) not to be too concerned about it. Over time, the seals will deteriorate further, and will have to be replaced, but I will wait to combine the re-build of the steering rack with the other jobs once funds are sufficient.

    For those without the skills and equipment, labour costs are a killer! The camshaft seal costs $12, but the labour involved in a gearbox out job...ouch!

    AM
    A simple blocking plate can be made out of 2 mm sheet AL. All you need to do is just use the seal plate on the pressure side of the RU as a template. Then the blocking plate is put on the two studs and the current sealing plate with its 0-rings in place goes against it. The pressure feed from the car is last and then tightened down. With the PS out of the circuit you will know instantaneously if there is a problem there or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citroenfan View Post
    A simple blocking plate can be made out of 2 mm sheet AL. All you need to do is just use the seal plate on the pressure side of the RU as a template. Then the blocking plate is put on the two studs and the current sealing plate with its 0-rings in place goes against it. The pressure feed from the car is last and then tightened down. With the PS out of the circuit you will know instantaneously if there is a problem there or not.
    Hmm. Thanks, let me look at the course notes and think that one through. No doubt, as a novice, I will have some questions...

    p.s. Pallas74, being where you are I am sure that Darrin at Citroen Classics would help out with some advice. I have always found him very willing and helpful. [email protected]. 01784 452299.

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    Have you checked your accumulator sphere,if its lost its nitrogen you won't have a buffer, the pump will cut in every time the pressure drops slightly.

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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    Just for general information... the case of my ID19.

    When I bought it, the pump was cycling every... never.
    Friend tried it, also commented on that, said, impressive, the pump almost never comes on.
    But the steering rack was crap.
    I fit a used one, cheap at 120€, and got lucky. The steering is... lovely. It's also got the taped steering wheel. which compounds the loveliness.
    It's a '68.

    Since then, though, the pump comes on every... four seconds or so.
    No leaks, dry floor.
    So the rack has some sort of internal leak. Nothing else was changed in the way of hydraulics.

    So, it could be a similar problem.
    Thing is, on the 21, the pump cycles every 25-30 seconds or so, car stays up and all, but the steering... it's good, but not quite as lovely
    Maybe it is the internal leak on the 19's that makes it so smooth...

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    Wow. A truly global response. Thanks to you all for your thoughts and shared wisdom. We're thinking it is most likely to be the seals in the rack. All other components have been tested or replaced recently. However the blocking plate test sounds worthwhile. My mate lives in France (I was visiting at the time when I first posted) so Darrin isn't close enough but we know Darrin well and often ask for advice and he' helped us both out on more than one occasion.

    So, next question - has anyone refurbished a rack themselves. My mate has the luxury of time, tools and a workshop so would probably want to try it himself if feasible and if there were some instructions to hand.

    Once again, many thanks!
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    Fellow Frogger! Don B. Cilly's Avatar
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    See here.
    Pallasquier: DSuper 5 : Démontage de la Direction Assistée
    The best and most detailed explanation I've ever seen on how to do any job on a D.
    I'm pointing to page 4 because the visual impact will give you an idea right away of the level of detail and quality, but it tells you everything.
    Including how to make your own tools for the job.

    Reading it, it made me want to... forget about it, actually , also considering that just the seals and rubbers cost more than 150€.
    But maybe one day...
    GreenBlood likes this.

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    1000+ Posts michaelr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    See here.
    Pallasquier: DSuper 5 : Démontage de la Direction Assistée
    Reading it, it made me want to... forget about it, actually , also considering that just the seals and rubbers cost more than 150€.
    But maybe one day...
    Yikes! That is scary isn't it! I was considering doing the job myself revently but have fitted a good secondhand rack with new boots instead. My pump time is much improved. Possibly the rear height corrector is the main problem now.
    Michael
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    Thanks to my old buddy Pallas74 and the rest of you for your help and advice. I reckon that I'll have a go at the rack seal replacement myself, as it will be good for my otherwise poor French and even better for mechanical experience, as long as it all goes okay! Now that I've signed up to the forum I'm sure to be back in touch for more help......
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InFrance View Post
    Thanks to my old buddy Pallas74 and the rest of you for your help and advice. I reckon that I'll have a go at the rack seal replacement myself, as it will be good for my otherwise poor French and even better for mechanical experience, as long as it all goes okay! Now that I've signed up to the forum I'm sure to be back in touch for more help......
    Ain't nothing but a thing. That's what we're here for.
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