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  1. #1
    WRB
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    Default CX Roadworthy

    Well, it failed for all of the usual reasons, lower ball joints, roll bar links, brake pads all around, FRONT WHEEL BEARINGS*, roll bar drop links, front brake hoses, oil leaks and, missing warning lights (how could they tell??)

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    Here is the killer. Apparently the front chassis (for want of a better word) rails have been bashed and dented and so, they need a certificate from a body repairer stating that they are safe and, if not, that they be repaired....

    When I get back from banging my head against a brick wall, I will have to think long and hard about this.



    *rather expensive (to put it mildly)
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    How do you check wheel bearings Have they seen the size of a CX wheel bearing. I've also never heard of a CX having slop in rollbar drop links. Maybe you can get away with just boots!

    being bashed up underneath is normal. Most cars have been dragged "flat" at some point in there life. Just armour all the brake hoses, that's all I have done in the past when they have been picked up.

    I'm very suss of the fact they reckon it needs brake pads all around. I've never seen or heard of a CX that needs rear brake pads ...............................

    This kind of bullshit is the reason we don't want roadworthy certificate for cars going onto club permits.

    Oil leaks and lower ball joint would be normal. I bet the upper balljoints and lower arms bushes are gone too ... but they don't know how to check them

    edit: Just had a thought ... there maybe slop in the wheel bearings If so, tighten the driveshaft nuts .... They need to be REALLY tight

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    Last edited by DoubleChevron; 9th September 2015 at 02:11 PM.
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    I'll bet pounds to pennies that your inspector has never inspected a CX before, or anything other than the usual garden variety shopping trollies found in the carpark of the local shops. It could be that he's failed it on so many counts in the hope that he doesn't have to admit that he has no idea what he's looking at........I've seen this sort of caper before. I'd be looking for an inspector that knows Citroens.

  4. #4
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarNut View Post
    I'll bet pounds to pennies that your inspector has never inspected a CX before, or anything other than the usual garden variety shopping trollies found in the carpark of the local shops. It could be that he's failed it on so many counts in the hope that he doesn't have to admit that he has no idea what he's looking at........I've seen this sort of caper before. I'd be looking for an inspector that knows Citroens.
    I can see a flaw with that idea too ................................. Would you want me to do a stringent roadworthy check on a CX ... I know every common problem ...... and how to check for them .............
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    WRB
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    I will clean, re-grease and tighten the front bearings. You can hear a rumble coming from the front end at speed. I thought it might be the intermediate half shaft bearing so, I will check that as well (Could be the Diff). Droplinks aren't available at all for my car. I will get a note from Robert at Heka regarding the sub-frame. I did tell them that it wasn't a chassis!

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    JBN
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    The "rails" (longerons) on a CX are not part of the chassis. They hold no weight. They are for absorption of forces associated with a head on collision. They operate by being compressed by front end forces. They are held to the hull of the car by 9 high tension bolts which snap off progressively during a frontal collision, absorbing the shock of that impact. Think of a drinking straw. Very easy to bend in half. Try pushing a straw from each end to squash it.

    This is what happens in a frontal collision in a CX:
    1. the front rubber overriders compact into the front subframe. Each overrider consists of 3 square tubes, one inside of the other and tack welded. The front tube snaps the weld and compresses into the second tube. These two tubes snap the weld and compress into the third (last) tube.
    2. After much of the shock has been absorbed, these three tubes that are now one inside the other push onto the subframe.

    3. The front subframe now starts to try to compress the longerons. As it does so, the longerons compress and may eventually snap the first or more of the high tension bolts holding them to the hull. It is at this point that the integrity of the hull becomes at risk.
    4. The longerons are attached to the rear tubular subframe and work in a similar manner in a rear end collision. In this case, the boot is sacrificial until the intrusion is to the rear subframe and then the same process of compression and snapping of high tensile bolts happens.

    One of the first inspections on a used CX is to check the longerons. They are riveted to the subframe. If they are bolted, they have been replaced because the car has been in a serious front ender. If they haven't been replaced, see if there is distortion near the front subframe (around the bottom of the A pillar. If there is, there has been a mild frontender.

    I suggest you type out the above and show to any "repairer" that is tasked to survey existing damage before ascertaining if the car is safe to drive.

    Also tell any mechanic that the front wheel bearings are dual row ball bearings of considerable dimension. They are not piddly small tapered roller bearings. The bearings are also central in the front wheel geometry. "Overkill" is the normal term to describe them.

    I have had a half front collision in a CX. Basically an early model Nissan Navarra duelcab turned left to get petrol on a left hand curve from the middle lane. He had trouble filling up as his vehicle was upside down and petrol doesn't run up hill. Unfortunately for him and me, my CX was in the left hand lane. At 70kph (the speed limit) during peak hour (all lanes full), the sky turned blue as I locked the brakes. The front of the CX from the chevrons on the grill to the top of the drivers wheel has disappeared (actually been beautifully compressed into a vertical wall of crushed metal). There was a slight bend in the drivers side longeron at the bottom of the A pillar. There was a slight kink above the door where the A pillar was starting to compress the roof. The door opening normally.


    Amazingly, I didn't feel a thing. The shock absorption work exactly as planned. I had a friend who had a bad front ender in his CX and was so impressed he bought another (the first being written off). Marcel, a legendary Sydney Citroen mechanic before his death, told me of one of his elderly customers having a full front ender with a Holden Statesman. The two occupants in the Statesman were killed, the elderly couple in the CX were not and were not even badly injured.


    All the best with the bureaucrats.


    John
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    WRB

    If you want to PM me I can tell you who gave me my CX roadworthy. I have subsequently done all of the above works you have mentioned and more in my own good time!!


    Adrian

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    I can see a flaw with that idea too ................................. Would you want me to do a stringent roadworthy check on a CX ... I know every common problem ...... and how to check for them .............
    Well actually Shane, yes I WOULD prefer someone like yourself to be checking a CX for roadworthiness. It's like going to your plumber for brain surgery....sure he can hold the scalpel and maybe even fool somebody into thinking he knows what he's doing, but it's gonna end badly for sure, lol.
    An inspector (who isn't familiar with CXs) might have the book of certificates but if he isn't familiar with a CX and misses things that someone like yourself knows to look for, the results could disappointing at best. Dangerous at worst.
    The whole rwc thing can be hit'n'miss at times, but it is better than nothing.
    WRB's options are to dispose of the car as uneconomical to repair, fork out a considerable sum to have the "faults" rectified, or find an inspector familiar with the CX.....or somebody with the enough engineering nouse to differentiate between what is dangerous and what is not.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRB View Post
    I will clean, re-grease and tighten the front bearings. You can hear a rumble coming from the front end at speed. I thought it might be the intermediate half shaft bearing so, I will check that as well (Could be the Diff). Droplinks aren't available at all for my car. I will get a note from Robert at Heka regarding the sub-frame. I did tell them that it wasn't a chassis!
    You can't really re-pack them



    Citroen CX Front Wheel Bearing Early | eBay

    Interesting there appears to be a different type of bearing for > 82...... I wonder what the difference is. The ABS ring is on the driveshaft, so it's not that!

    seeya,
    Shane L
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    Hi Shane,

    The hub is a different size - you can use the new bearings on an older car if you swap the hub also.

    Never heard of serious play in a wheel bearing before they start to get noisy. Bet the inspector is wobbling the wheel from top to bottom and is actually picking up slop in the lower suspension arm bushes...

    Cheers,
    Andrew
    Last edited by andrewj; 9th September 2015 at 05:31 PM.

    Driving - '90 XM, '85 CX IE Auto, 406 Coupe, 405 srdt wagon, '78 dyane, Resting (or Rusting): '73 Birotor '82 CX Presitige, '81 CX Break IE, GS X2, GS1015 Wagon, GS 1300 5sp Wagon, '76 GS 1220 Wagon, '75 GS Wagon, '58 2CV, '58 Vauxhall Velox

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    WRB
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    I will have a look at them, I cannot imagine a bearing that big collapsing without a huge amount of force. I still think the halfshaft bearing is the problem but, I won't be able to do anything until the weekend. Thanks for all the advice - I will take John's explanation of the workings of the subframe to the inspector and stand over him while he reads it!

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    WRB
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    PS: CarNut () The car is to be restored so, I will soldier on with it.

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    I'm dreading putting my CX through RWC. It's now been a year since I bought it, and it's running now, but not very well. Still a fair bit of work to get on the road. It's spent the last six months sitting on my parents front lawn in Mount Waverley (just around the corner from you WRB). All too often when I'm down, it's cold and wet, and I've been away a lot

    I've been reading your posts, and looking at the issues you're having, many of which I am too. I'm still a long way off getting it in for a roadworthy, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of extra things.

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBendigo View Post
    I'm dreading putting my CX through RWC. It's now been a year since I bought it, and it's running now, but not very well. Still a fair bit of work to get on the road. It's spent the last six months sitting on my parents front lawn in Mount Waverley (just around the corner from you WRB). All too often when I'm down, it's cold and wet, and I've been away a lot

    I've been reading your posts, and looking at the issues you're having, many of which I am too. I'm still a long way off getting it in for a roadworthy, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of extra things.
    Get her undercover ... The interiors disintegrate in the sun ..... and the exteriors dissolve in the wet You should have got that thing on a club permit before the roadworthy requirement was implemented!
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRB View Post
    PS: CarNut () The car is to be restored so, I will soldier on with it.
    Aaahh, the sign of a true enthusiast!! It's nice to hear that you haven't been put off by this wally who's given you a big long list of "faults". Some of them, I have to say, sound a bit silly.
    Just out of curiosity, is he a Citroen specialist or is he just a bloke at the local servo who doesn't have much contact with cars that don't fit the mould of Commodore/Falcon/Camry....?
    I hope you have a win soon, whatever solution ends up being.

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    WRB
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    Well, I am going to do the stuff that actually needs doing and then take it somewhere else. Amongst other ridiculous things they listed is "left hand rear door rubber seal not secure". Just sad that I wasted $210.00 for nothing
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    WRB
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    He isn't a Citroen specialist - I thought if I did go to a specialist, I would end up having to replace the rear swing arm bearings before I had time to get my mind around the idea (I read Shane' post on how much fun it was)

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    When we took a BX 16 Valve for a roadworthy to our Citroen Specialist the day before my son wanted to take it to French Car Day, he passed it as being in reasonable condition for age and added that we had better do the rear arm bearings soon as there was some movement. I thought he was very understanding. I think he also trusted that we would fix any problems.

    So go the specialist next time with a nice tight front end and new brake pads all round.

    Cheers, Ken W

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WRB View Post
    He isn't a Citroen specialist - I thought if I did go to a specialist, I would end up having to replace the rear swing arm bearings before I had time to get my mind around the idea (I read Shane' post on how much fun it was)
    Some rear arm bearings are dead easy ... you push the bolt out with your little finger..... About 50% I've found are like this............. Some are more "fun"
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleChevron View Post
    How do you check wheel bearings Have they seen the size of a CX wheel bearing. I've also never heard of a CX having slop in rollbar drop links. Maybe you can get away with just boots!

    being bashed up underneath is normal. Most cars have been dragged "flat" at some point in there life. Just armour all the brake hoses, that's all I have done in the past when they have been picked up.

    I'm very suss of the fact they reckon it needs brake pads all around. I've never seen or heard of a CX that needs rear brake pads ...............................

    This kind of bullshit is the reason we don't want roadworthy certificate for cars going onto club permits.

    Oil leaks and lower ball joint would be normal. I bet the upper balljoints and lower arms bushes are gone too ... but they don't know how to check them

    edit: Just had a thought ... there maybe slop in the wheel bearings If so, tighten the driveshaft nuts .... They need to be REALLY tight

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    I beg to differ on front wheel bearings. They do wear. The case hardening on the races erodes and the bearing becomes sloppy. No amount of tightening of the drive shaft will take out this play. The inner races are in two parts and compress the balls onto the outer race to provide the designed preloading when the drive shaft is properly tightened ( approx. 180 ft/lbs ) However being of fixed dimension and butting face to face when properly tightened, this is their limit. They can be tightened no further. I had to replace both front wheel bearings with just this kind of wear. BTW the worst thing you can do with a new bearing is to repack it with extra grease. There is just enough lubrication as supplied and the bearing should be fitted as is. Extra grease only tens to jam up in front of the balls as they roll in the race and cause them to skid, not roll and induces rapid wear!
    Cheers Gerry

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    When I got my first CX I spent 2 years getting it ready for it's RWC. I replaced the front brake hoses because the old ones had fine surface cracks all over them. I ditched the diode block and replaced the alternator. I removed and reconditioned the electrovalve which had been spewing all of the ATF all over the road. I spent months repairing wiring faults, and learning all about the car. The previous owner had put engine oil in the cooling system, by mistake, and it took weeks to remove it all. I took Shane's advice and threw the air pump as far as I possibly could.
    A few months after getting it on the road I had to remove the rack , and completely dismantle it and replace all the seals and things in it. Great little job that one. The seal kit had about 50 little o rings and teflon rings, and cost over $200.00. It worked perfectly after that.

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    Your mate won't have to worry so much about the Armstrong steering rack leaking; much less chance of fluid escaping.
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    Lucky I have a friendly mechanic for roadworthy, as they don't understand it, they just pass it. They also know everything that really needs doing has already been done

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    Had this 2200 had power steering, the inspector would probably have also busted you for excessive slop in the steering column.

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    You blokes are getting me worried. A bit more interior to put in before I give it a try.

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