An interesting read...."The DS Brand"
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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Default An interesting read...."The DS Brand"

    I really enjoy Julian Marsh's writings as whether I agree with him or not he tends to really get to nub of things...

    His latest article is a beauty and in this case I think he's absolutely nailed it.

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    Despite my own negative feelings about PSA's perverse use of the DS name I personally think the DS brand should be included - clubs are about people after all, not cars.

    THE DS BRAND AND CITROňNňT

    Cheers,

    Mark...
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    Give them a break.
    Toyota created Lexus and now at where that is.
    Keep supporting DS as a concept: future, innovation, imagination and who knows were it will lead.
    The DS line is different enough to make them special and thats good enough for me

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    1000+ Posts Richard W's Avatar
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    A possible difference might be that Toyota launched the Lexus brand as a completely new brand with a massive investment that produced a car which, although perhaps not exciting, had unmatched levels of reliability, quality and refinement and was backed by a network that redefined the levels of service that owners could expect from dealers.

    Where exactly is the analogy with the modern DS?

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    Fellow Frogger! ds21bvh's Avatar
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    Hi Misterd (sorry - what is your real name...?)
    Lexus did not have a heritage - it was a fresh start....
    In other recreations of iconic cars such as the Mini, Fiat 500 and Volkswagen have at least respected the style and innovation of those vehicles by replicating their defining features.
    The new DS, as good a car as it may be bears no resemblance to it's forbear...
    I have no inclination to support a company whose agenda has been to systematically "de-citroenise" itself over the last 40 years - especially if the name "Citroen" is missing from it's premier product.
    Just my opinion...
    Cheers,
    Mark...
    Last edited by ds21bvh; 20th June 2015 at 07:57 AM.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterd View Post
    Give them a break.
    Toyota created Lexus and now at where that is.
    Keep supporting DS as a concept: future, innovation, imagination and who knows were it will lead.
    The DS line is different enough to make them special and thats good enough for me
    Don't even get me started.

    If I wanted a Lexus, I'd buy a God-da*n Lexus. They're certainly common enough over here.

    ​!
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    Hi, The name is Rob and I've owned 7 Citroens, including 2 D's, XM, CX and C6.
    Currently have a beautiful D
    As someone who has been to DS world in Paris and discovered a glorious appreciation of the heritage but a strong look forward to the future... I have my own opinion.
    Just my 2c


    oh, and I have also been in a cactus and found it a remarkably good design, particularly the cockpit.
    Might be my next car after I get tired of the GC SRT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post

    I. They're certainly common enough over here.
    Hardly surprising Since LEXUS= Luxury Export (for) US

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    Hi Rob,
    Many thanks for the response.
    I take your point - and respect your opinion...
    Just to be totally clear, I have no issue with the new DS car - it seems like a lovely vehicle. It's the use of the DS name which I find hard to understand. I am in fact very disappointed as PSA seems to have failed to capitalise on the leverage of the retro concept of the DS where other manufacturers have succeeded. There is no discernible link to the past in the design of the new DS apart from what is in the marketing material in my opinion.
    I would have loved to have seen the original DS footprint packaged as a modern vehicle. I think if Citroen was in charge that is what would have happened.
    Cheers,

    Mark...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    Hi Misterd (sorry - what is your real name...?)
    Lexus did not have a heritage - it was a fresh start....
    In other recreations of iconic cars such as the Mini, Fiat 500 and Volkswagen have at least respected the style and innovation of those vehicles by replicating their defining features.
    The new DS, as good a car as it may be bears no resemblance to it's forbear...
    I have no inclination to support a company whose agenda has been to systematically "de-citroenise" itself over the last 40 years - especially if the name "Citroen" is missing from it's premier product.
    Just my opinion...
    Cheers,
    Mark...
    Felt I had to reply here. I have enjoyed your post and it raises some interesting questions.

    Out and about this evening with SWMBO I spotted a MINI Countryman and immediately said to my spouse "Alec Issigonis would be turning in his grave if he saw that". I get the original MINI reincarnation back in 1999-2000 as it was faithful to the original MINI. The design brief to the BMW designers/Engineers was to create a modern MINI that would exist if the MINI had continued development and re engineering over 40 + years. Thats all good but the MINI brand and name no longer bears any resemablance to the design philosopy of the original or dare I say it of the relaunched version from 2000. Its just another niche vehicle competing for the dollars of the well healed. To me its not a "MINI" in the true sense.

    So I get where many may stand with the DS range. But I am pragmatic. Its just marketing at the the end of the day. Enthusiasts will always know what they believe to be a DS, FIAT 500, MINI and beetle.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterd View Post
    Hi, The name is Rob and I've owned 7 Citroens, including 2 D's, XM, CX and C6.
    Currently have a beautiful D
    As someone who has been to DS world in Paris and discovered a glorious appreciation of the heritage but a strong look forward to the future... I have my own opinion.
    Just my 2c


    oh, and I have also been in a cactus and found it a remarkably good design, particularly the cockpit.
    Might be my next car after I get tired of the GC SRT
    I might be just a bit too militant here. Part of that is because I disfavor companies raping their heritage as PSA has done. I get harking back to glory days when a design became iconic. It's cheesy, but it seems to work if done well. Here it's not even a hint of the original DS, there's really nothing new or different or innovative, and in this case PSA has decided to full-on rip off the name, glue it to a Peugeot and hope to hell nobody notices or cares. I would even have an easier time with the ending of hydropneumatics if there were something that could replace it in terms of ride and control. But no- here we have a rather mundane chassis clothed by something that looks modern Asian. In short, the DS6 is fantastic for the Chinese market. For everybody else, not so much.

    On a somewhat more personal note, absolutely none of my frothing at the mouth invalidates your opinion. I just so wish that the new DS were a genuine leap forward. From all appearances, sadly it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by some_one View Post
    Hardly surprising Since LEXUS= Luxury Export (for) US
    I never thought about it that way, but yah. The Lexus brand was originally designed for the US. What a lot of buyers don't realize is Lexus is very much as Lincoln/Mercury was for Ford. The marketing is quite good, if annoying.


    Quote Originally Posted by b707 View Post
    Felt I had to reply here. I have enjoyed your post and it raises some interesting questions.

    Out and about this evening with SWMBO I spotted a MINI Countryman and immediately said to my spouse "Alec Issigonis would be turning in his grave if he saw that". I get the original MINI reincarnation back in 1999-2000 as it was faithful to the original MINI. The design brief to the BMW designers/Engineers was to create a modern MINI that would exist if the MINI had continued development and re engineering over 40 + years. Thats all good but the MINI brand and name no longer bears any resemablance to the design philosopy of the original or dare I say it of the relaunched version from 2000. Its just another niche vehicle competing for the dollars of the well healed. To me its not a "MINI" in the true sense.

    So I get where many may stand with the DS range. But I am pragmatic. Its just marketing at the the end of the day. Enthusiasts will always know what they believe to be a DS, FIAT 500, MINI and beetle.
    I'm just going to agree.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    I think Julian has got it dead right. I was very disappointed that the new DS range owed nothing to the Goddess. When they launched the video with the Goddess in the background my disappointment changed to rage. I have even said I am offended. To take the heritage and trample all over it is highly offensive. Wars have been started for less.

    I have spent the weekend driving the CX as a normal car. Doing the shopping, visiting my first Grandson in hospital, taking his Grandma out to dinner. This morning I fitted one of the new child restraint hooks so he can have the pleasure of riding in a true Citroen, that built on the advances of the DS, that respected the heritage. I fail to see how those advances, so obvious in driving a CX, can not be sold, can not be the basis of a successful sub brand.
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    I wouldn't bother becoming disappointed

    Citroen marketing is no different to any other marques marketing and all manufactures ultimately want is to sell cars. They have no loyalty to the brand nor the brand history.

    Successis ascertained by the bottom line profits.

    .
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    Brand history is no guide to its future.
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    Just a few more of my thoughts on the subject.

    Most people who have at least a basic understanding of automotive history and engineering, would agree that the DS is arguably one of the most revolutionary cars of the 20th century. I would also Include the Model T (more for affordability and manufacturing process) and the original MINI (affordability, packaging and performance). But none come close to the sheer level of innovation that was the DS. Unfortunately the era of bold risk taking design has passed for cars. Id say the Tesla S is a possible exception but it still has range anxiety issues and requires infrastructure that doesn't yet exist to alleviate this.

    So I'm left scratching my head as to which car even comes comes close to the DS in terms of revolutionary design. Unfortunately the auto makers, marketers and buying public couldn't care less. Today's trendy must have popular Euro car is tomorrows boring object that must be discarded for the next big thing. The makers are more than happy to feed these desires. Its the nature of the beast. As cars become more reliable, cheaper and boring appliances, the pricier Euros have to sell on "style" and "history" to justify higher production costs and turn a profit. Witness FIAT 500s sharing the FIAT Panda platform, Beetles sharing the Golf platform and BMW finally going to FWD. I'm not convinced but am in the minority so have to live with it. At the end of the day they exist to make money and bugger everything else.

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    I think the new Goddess may be called Tesla...

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    A Yank crowd did a 'comparison' to decide which was the most innovative between the Tesla and DS. They handed it to the Goddess, easily. Isn't there a link on the site somewhere?
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasya View Post
    A Yank crowd did a 'comparison' to decide which was the most innovative between the Tesla and DS. They handed it to the Goddess, easily. Isn't there a link on the site somewhere?
    The DS/Model S comparison.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Yeah, one that I tend to show to the hoi polloi ;∑)
    That and the Hungarian one.

    I loved the Tesla Insane Mode one, though.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    Yeah, one that I tend to show to the hoi polloi ;∑)
    That and the Hungarian one.
    Great film, but I don't speak Hungarian. However, I have good friends who do. One of them is a professional translator.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Don B. Cilly View Post
    I loved the Tesla Insane Mode one, though.
    There was an insanity test posted to YouTube several years ago. It later morphed into this Spanish 2CV Turbo video.


    Edit: I remembered seeing the film. I didn't remember the subtitles. Gaaak......
    Last edited by Hotrodelectric; 22nd June 2015 at 04:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterd View Post
    I think the new Goddess may be called Tesla...
    Which very few of us can actually afford!

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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsydney View Post
    Which very few of us can actually afford!
    Wait for the small car version due out in a few years. The Tesla S is a radical car though. Just looking at a rolling chassis and you start to wonder where the rest of it is. There is no need for the rest in an electric car. The only issue I have with it is it looks to ordinary for the radical car it is. It is the start of the new direction in motoring.
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    To a point, there is no answer. Andre was into marketing as much as Citroen was into innovation. But it was all a happy confluence.
    I kinda think that generic appetites have, sadly, become greyed and homogenised, whether clothes or music, and the level of accepting something radical or innovative is quite diminished. Part of it is the overarching competitiveness to just survive, pragmatism over optimism.

    Recall, too, that it was the....um...*less than grande* BX that helped Citroen make a few $$.
    I came close to buying a Xsara last week. That was going to be my concession to 2015 auto conservatism.
    Rather astoundingly the dealer asked "would you be interested in a C5 HDI for the same money?"

    "Yes" said I. So now I have a 2005 blue HDI wagon instead. Whew.

    But it is looking grim for the future, ain't it? I mean, when Citroen abandons *ride* as a primary design basis for their cars, let alone the swag of innovations that the D heralded, are they heading to being "just another carsville?" Methinks they are. Time will tell.
    "D" genes are not to be taken lightly or just used as marketing hype. Tell that to the marketing boys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyk View Post
    To a point, there is no answer. Andre was into marketing as much as Citroen was into innovation. But it was all a happy confluence.
    I kinda think that generic appetites have, sadly, become greyed and homogenised, whether clothes or music, and the level of accepting something radical or innovative is quite diminished. Part of it is the overarching competitiveness to just survive, pragmatism over optimism.

    Recall, too, that it was the....um...*less than grande* BX that helped Citroen make a few $$.
    I came close to buying a Xsara last week. That was going to be my concession to 2015 auto conservatism.
    Rather astoundingly the dealer asked "would you be interested in a C5 HDI for the same money?"

    "Yes" said I. So now I have a 2005 blue HDI wagon instead. Whew.

    But it is looking grim for the future, ain't it? I mean, when Citroen abandons *ride* as a primary design basis for their cars, let alone the swag of innovations that the D heralded, are they heading to being "just another carsville?" Methinks they are. Time will tell.
    "D" genes are not to be taken lightly or just used as marketing hype. Tell that to the marketing boys.
    I'd have to observe that Citroen gave up "ride" years ago for many of their models. Have you ever ridden in a Xsara Picasso? The BX saved them, as I understand it with hydropneumatics despite PSA's preference for abandoning the system at that point in time.

    Sadly, Citroen went broke over the innovation of the Traction, coupled with the Depression, and again went broke over the proposed innovation of the CX (coupled with Wankel engines etc). At least that is my understanding. PSA doesn't have Michelin or the then Automobiles Peugeot to bail them out in France these days. Now the Chinese have quite a stake. As I've observed before, ride quality isn't too important in a Chinese traffic jam.

    Ah well. I'm treasuring my CX. Daily driver at the moment, and with C-matic is a breeze in traffic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Wait for the small car version due out in a few years. The Tesla S is a radical car though. Just looking at a rolling chassis and you start to wonder where the rest of it is. There is no need for the rest in an electric car. The only issue I have with it is it looks to ordinary for the radical car it is. It is the start of the new direction in motoring.
    As much as I love the Tesla S and would buy one in a heart beat if I could afford it and an internal combustion car as well. As I see it the DS did everything that a contemporary saloon could do at the time and had all the innovation to go with it. The tesla S has incredible performance compared to other cars in its price bracket and even if it's energy comes from dirty coal fired power stations it's still much more efficient than a petrol/diesel/hybrid in converting that chemical energy to mechanical energy. But and it's a big but, until it can recharge or replace its batteries in the time it takes to refuel a conventional car it will not be a real alternative. Can you do a Sydney to Melboune drive in one of these with only one short fuel stop?

    I see a place for electric cars but I don't think they will ever be practical long distance cruisers. We take for granted how energy dense liquid fossil fuels are. The fact that a tank can get you up to 1000km in some cars is truly amazing but sadly that convenience and affordability is coming to an end. Enjoy it while it lasts.

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    1000+ Posts garyk's Avatar
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    Its a tough gig. Timing is everything in so many cases too. I confess that I like the look of the Mini over the DS3, but I'm sure the Citroen is the better car. Mini marketing and "getting it right" for punter appeal was important. Aussie journos are (mostly) awful in constantly (over many decades) calling Citroen "quirky" (and um, "very comfortable, but....") even "back in the days" when a Citroen, (or even a Peugeot), was a far better car for most Australian conditions than a Holden, styling aside (aside !?!).

    I'd love to see Citroen really *hit the road* with giant steps, I don't care too much if it is a new engine type (hydrogen??) but still incorporating principles of ride, handling, balance, ergonomics ... coupled with superb styling and other real innovations...

    But I guess that we know that even when a smash hit arrives, like the DS, it doesn't always translate into instant profitability.

    Just reminiscing the other days on the GS.... also a revolutionary car in many ways, but never really received the recognition it should have had in the "smaller" car market. Franky, too, not many people really get to understand what Citroen ownership really means. We took the 1015 semi-auto ⅓ of the way around Oz. Fantastic touring car, but "on paper" (or if you just tootled it around town) you never saw its true colours.

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