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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    Default DSpecial ignition problems

    Ok so went to fire up the motor today and found the ignition lead (white one) to the solenoid through the ignition key switch had zero voltage. Ie no ignition. not happy.
    It worked before dismantle but now.... voltage through all other wires on ignition, new loom so it has to be the switch, so where to go to solve the problem, didn't want to pull the ignition barrel/switch apart as it looked like a disaster waiting to happen. Can new RHD ignitions be bought or they be rebuilt, this has been a big bummer today : )

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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    Ok so went to fire up the motor today and found the ignition lead (white one) to the solenoid through the ignition key switch had zero voltage. Ie no ignition. not happy.
    It worked before dismantle but now.... voltage through all other wires on ignition, new loom so it has to be the switch, so where to go to solve the problem, didn't want to pull the ignition barrel/switch apart as it looked like a disaster waiting to happen. Can new RHD ignitions be bought or they be rebuilt, this has been a big bummer today : )

    Steven
    Steven, I would hope you can find a good used part but if all else fails. . .
    Ignition switch assembly RHD with Manual or BW trans Price includes refundable surcharge

    Cheers
    Chris
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

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    so do I Chris! I think that price is a tad on the OTT! I did look on Darren's site but missed that item somehow, thanks. If anyone has a spare I'm keen, stuffed if I know why mine won't behave, it was fine when disconnected.

    that price should be $440 AU if vat is excluded...

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    Have you tested the switch with a multimeter?
    Is your new harness different to the old one?
    I'm not sure if it applies to your car, but I recall there being a free lead (yellow I think) in behind the cluster that alters the connection of the starter in later models. You'd need to check the diagram for your car and maybe the old harness to see if it's there. It's used when there is no battery mounted starter solenoid. Sorry if that's all a bit obscure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    so do I Chris! I think that price is a tad on the OTT! I did look on Darren's site but missed that item somehow, thanks. If anyone has a spare I'm keen, stuffed if I know why mine won't behave, it was fine when disconnected.

    that price should be $440 AU if vat is excluded...
    When I replaced my dash I had missed connecting a ground which caused no ignition, once found and connected of course all was well. I'll have a look in the morning for wire colours - may be something as simple, if all was working before

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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    thanks guys yes has 8 leads, with yellow, there was no voltage through the white ignition to solenoid through the ignition switch, but when tested throught the loom lead after 8 pin connector it fired, so the cause had to be the switch being faulty, I recall what I thought was a repair that had a switch or fuse on the old loom, must have been a switch ( I chucked it ages ago in the purge which may have been put in to resolve an already didgy switch on the key turn but no idea really, all the earths seem good, luckily some of the senior experts here have lent advice and the suggestion has been to replace with a push button but I can't do that can I!

    Surely a LHD ignition could be transplanted into a RHD body?
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 10th June 2015 at 12:23 AM.

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    How about a great big red button with POWER? in luminous letters or a toggle switch with a hinged cover like all good fighter aircraft?

    If you go for a button, don't forget to insert the key or the steering lock will activate and you'll be in a ditch.

    I thought (usually wrong) that the ignition switch was just held in with a grub screw and that the steering lock part was a bugger to remove.
    mnm and Lasya like this.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    I am sensing some confusion in the force.....

    For the BVM, the you can have it one of two ways (I didn't say this was going to be simple ). The first method, the most common one for the newer cars (1970 ->) is the direct battery connection once the ignition switch is turned to start. What I mean by that is, as David S pointed out, there is a jumper lead that connects the battery input from the headlight switch to the solenoid. This jumper- yellow 14 gauge- has 3 ends on it: black male, black female, and a brown female. The brown female is connected to the brown wire at the ignition switch. The white wire connects to a black wire/white sleeve on the loom, and from there goes to the red sleeved black wire which is paired with the battery cable to the starter solenoid on the starter.

    Yah, clear as mud. But wait- there's more!!

    This was normally on the early cars, although you will find it on the 3-dial cars, that the usual solenoid- the battery mounted one, was used. The pathway was different, because the white wire was used as a ground instead of battery+. In this case, there is no jumper from the headlight switch. There is- 3 dial cars only- however a buss of some sort from the battery input at the starter to the solenoid stud on the starter. I think this was a cost saving exercise by Citroen because having one starter in stock is way cheaper than having two.

    The BVH cars are as they always were: starter solenoid grounded by the switch at the shift wand.

    So- my question is: what year is the car, what transmission are we working with, and does the car have a solenoid mounted on the battery? Don't panic- it's gotta be something simple and stupid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by badabec View Post
    How about a great big red button with POWER? in luminous letters or a toggle switch with a hinged cover like all good fighter aircraft?

    If you go for a button, don't forget to insert the key or the steering lock will activate and you'll be in a ditch.

    I thought (usually wrong) that the ignition switch was just held in with a grub screw and that the steering lock part was a bugger to remove.
    You mean, like this?
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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    its a 3 dial 74 DSpecial manual no solenoid on battery. the white and brown wires ( male pins) coming out of ignition switch at key are separate from the dash wires that go into a six (edit!)pin connector then off to dash. The white wire ( predictive text just made that 'whore' goes to the solenoid on starter as proven in test. Does that explain the set up, got a new loom from Christian in Germany, I might scan his diagram to show differences to the repair manual which only cover the four fuse set up whereas mine has six fuse set up. Yes mud. ideally I could buy a LHD drive ignition set up and pull it out and fit to RHD but what are chances, unchartered territory. That button simply will not cut the moutard desole!
    Last edited by forumnoreason; 11th June 2015 at 09:47 AM.

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    its a 3 dial 74 DSpecial manual no solenoid on battery. the white and brown wires ( male pins) coming out of ignition switch at key are separate from the dash wires that go into a eight pin connector then off to dash. The white wire ( predictive text just made that 'whore' goes to the solenoid on starter as proven in test. Does that explain the set up, got a new loom from Christian in Germany, I might scan his diagram to show differences to the repair manual which only cover the four fuse set up whereas mine has six fuse set up. Yes mud. ideally I could buy a LHD drive ignition set up and pull it out and fit to RHD but what are chances, unchartered territory. That button simply will not cut the moutard desole!

    OK- '74 D BVM. Yah- you need that jumper wire. Easy to install, just a bit of a bitch to figure out if you've never seen it before. I'm willing to bet it's still on your old loom. You'll need to pull the instrument cluster and the top of the steering pod if you haven't already done that. Once that jumper is in, you're good to go.

    Your 6-fuse setup is I think like most all other RHD version Ds. Someone posted an amended "Aussie market" diagram sporting 10 fuses. I grabbed a copy, wish I could remember who that was so I could properly credit them.

    I would hold a little before judging a need for a new ignition switch. As you see, they aren't cheap, and they are a little on the difficult side to replace owing to the security nuts they used for install. Is yours mechanically bad, difficult to turn, etc.?


    Your predictive text feature seems a bit prescient.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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    Alrighty- your system is a 10-fuse setup. From Citronpaper.it (if you haven't got this site bookmarked, why??)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSpecial ignition problems-42.jpg  
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    Dumb suggestion .... but try wiggling all the fuses in there housings before you spent too much time on this .... I find those old glass fuses intermitant and very dodgy. It wouldn't be the first ( or 100th time) I've popped a bonnet and wiggled the fuses .... to have the car fire right up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Alrighty- your system is a 10-fuse setup. From Citronpaper.it (if you haven't got this site bookmarked, why??)
    Probably looks more like this Bill, at least my '74 D Special does. . .


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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSpecial ignition problems-ds-6-fuse.jpg  
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Regarding item 7, that's the inline fuse for the inner headlamps. There's one on each side (LH#7, RH#8) and it can easily be left out by plugging the guard harness straight into the main loom. It's worth checking if these are fitted as I doubt the inner lamps are otherwise fused. I actually need to track one down as they are obviously easily lost.
    Last edited by David S; 10th June 2015 at 01:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    Regarding item 7, that's the inline fuse for the inner headlamps. There's one on each side and it can easily be left out by plugging the guard harness straight into the main loom. It's worth checking if these are fitted as I doubt the inner lamps are otherwise fused. I actually need to track one down as they are obviously easily lost.
    7 and 8 appear to be missing on my car, I wonder if this too was cost cutting - thanks for pointing this out, I'll have to make a small modification

    For what it's worth, the wire that I had not connected when refitting the dash is white with what looks like a brown sleeve, male connector, I earthed this chap and fixed my problem. As I recall I had ignition but no starter.

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    Probably looks more like this Bill, at least my '74 D Special does. . .


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    Chris
    Cool! Another site for me to raid! The one I found was for a '72 English spec, thinking it was similar to what was needed. Similar? Yes. The same? No. I see this uses a German spec 6 pin box, two in-line fuses and what looks like a 2-pin box at the wiper motor.

    Keerist, just more stuff to consider when I go to talk to a 3D printer shop about having this stuff repopped.
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    Just a hunch - could it be that the relay that you often find spliced in near the battery and coil has a disconnected wire? On mine and others I have seen they are jammed in pretty tight and it can be easy to pull a wire yet not be aware it has disconnected in amongst the tangles.
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    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    7 and 8 appear to be missing on my car, I wonder if this too was cost cutting - thanks for pointing this out, I'll have to make a small modification

    For what it's worth, the wire that I had not connected when refitting the dash is white with what looks like a brown sleeve, male connector, I earthed this chap and fixed my problem. As I recall I had ignition but no starter.

    Cheers
    Chris
    Yah- if you have the solenoid on the battery, that works. With solenoid on the starter that would be a dead short because of the way the solenoid + stud is bussed to the battery post at the starter motor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotrodelectric View Post
    Yah- if you have the solenoid on the battery, that works. With solenoid on the starter that would be a dead short because of the way the solenoid + stud is bussed to the battery post at the starter motor.
    No short, and no solenoid on the battery. Being a male connector with a brown sleeve I felt confident in grounding, result was starter fires up on turning the key.

    I suspect there has been some modification at some stage as when I took over the car it had a button on the binnacle with a few wires going nowhere. I think the ignition switch had failed and a bodge applied, but brought back to close to standard.

    It all works, and I have to say in this case "If it ain't broke don't fix it". . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Bill, I'm going to step back on the 'electickery'

    I've just had a look under the bonnet (hood) and note I have a non standard relay. I suspect that my ignition switch failed at some stage, a short term bodge was applied using a button for starting. Then later in it's life a replacement ignition switch has been fitted and the relay takes the load off the switch - that's my theory and I'm sticking to it (All this prior to my ownership, I might add).

    Anything I have to say with regard to Steven's issue is only confusing your sage advice

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    when I said 6 fuse I meant it has 6 on the passenger side as oppossed to other 4 fuses, yes its a ten with two on wall at wiper motor and should have two for lights. So this jumper Hotrod? where exactly does it run?

    I'll load up some phots and look forward to some suggestions, everything is brand new but I suspect the loom is slightly different, there are a few extras like solenoid under dash for dimming and glovebox lamp, which could be cool as they didn't have them on scuzzy Specials!

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    Quote Originally Posted by badabec View Post
    If you go for a button, don't forget to insert the key or the steering lock will activate and you'll be in a ditch.
    You've raised an important point - the steering lock collar on the steering column should be removed these days.

    This ensures the lock can't get stuck on or engage at the wrong time.

    The age of the mechanism and the fact that no-one steals these cars means they are better off disabled.

    Just my humble opinion...

    Cheers,

    Mark...

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    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    when I said 6 fuse I meant it has 6 on the passenger side as oppossed to other 4 fuses, yes its a ten with two on wall at wiper motor and should have two for lights. So this jumper Hotrod? where exactly does it run?


    I'll load up some phots and look forward to some suggestions, everything is brand new but I suspect the loom is slightly different, there are a few extras like solenoid under dash for dimming and glovebox lamp, which could be cool as they didn't have them on scuzzy Specials!
    No worries on the 6-vs-10 fuse setup. Chris got it squared away in right quick fashion.

    OK- jumper. It's a, say 200 or so mm long, yellow 2mm (in cross section) wire. There are 3 connections: one end is a 4mm male pin with a black sleeve. The other end is a 4mm female end, black sleeved on the other end of this wire, AND a 100 or so mm additional 2mm yellow wire with a brown sleeve. The black sleeved wires jumper between the connections at the black sleeve on your headlight switch. The brown sleeved end fits to the brown wire at your ignition switch. The white wire is your output to the starter.

    Dash dimmer should be two green wire, red sleeved 4mm female ends paired together. The dimmer switch should already be there in the lower 1/2 of your steering pod. Just look for two upright 4mm male pins close together. They'll be in a kind of white round block thingy (yes- I approved of that as a technical term just now). It doesn't matter which pin goes where.

    On the glovebox lamp- that takes it's power from the accessory stud, to a 3mm female pin. The ground is just that, nominally to the impossible to get at ground stud to a 3mm male pin. From there, it's the lamp to these 3mm pins. The lamp mounts in that oval hole left by the blanking plug in the glovebox.

    So- lessee wotyagot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ds21bvh View Post
    You've raised an important point - the steering lock collar on the steering column should be removed these days.

    This ensures the lock can't get stuck on or engage at the wrong time.

    The age of the mechanism and the fact that no-one steals these cars means they are better off disabled.

    Just my humble opinion...

    Cheers,

    Mark...
    This exact problem happened to Steve (Citroenfan) a short while back. If the lock is at all hinky, by all means remove the sleeve. You can hotwire the ignition switch fairly easily, but getting around that lock collar is a genuine pain in the tuchas.
    The measure of your character isn't what you do when people are watching- it's what you do when they aren't watching.

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