No gas in main accumulator on CX.
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    1000+ Posts CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    Default No gas in main accumulator on CX.

    Hi All,

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    I have just jumped into the Citroen family with a nice 1984 CX 25 Pallas ie. I have always loved them after a memorable ride in one back in 1981 in France. I got it from Vic where it was on Club plates so had to do the full rego inspection thing back here in country NSW. Unfortunately the mechanic thought he would undo the top of the funny round green thingy to see what is was.!! He said it made a real bang. He said he did replace an O ring when doing it up again. So no nitrogen in the main accumulator at present. Is there any big issues with driving it far until I replace the sphere.? The pump seems to be cutting in or clicking every 10 seconds or so at the moment presumably to try to pressure the sphere. Thanks in advance for any help.
    Last edited by CXVingtCinq; 7th June 2015 at 03:33 PM.
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

  2. #2
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Not wise to drive it. The sphere stores pressure but also damps pressure pulses from the pump. The pump won't like working against a flat accumulator.

    re reading the post, did the stupid mechanic undo screw on top of the sphere!!! I'll bet it made a bang. Get him to pay for a new sphere as he let all the gas out. A new sphere can be got for about $100.
    Mine

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    1000+ Posts CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    Many thanks Greg.
    Yeah, he is up for a new sphere. As my first try at replacement of one, (& remember I am in Narrabri in Nth West NSW) where do you recommend I go to source a new sphere? From my reading it is possible to buy a fully gassed new unit and have it posted here for fitting.? Which is relatively simple for me as a home (or the offending dumb country) mechanic.?
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg C View Post
    Not wise to drive it. The sphere stores pressure but also damps pressure pulses from the pump. The pump won't like working against a flat accumulator.

    re reading the post, did the stupid mechanic undo screw on top of the sphere!!! I'll bet it made a bang. Get him to pay for a new sphere as he let all the gas out. A new sphere can be got for about $100.
    Firstly Hi and welcome Peter

    Greg, I read and re-read Peter's post and can't believe that anyone could be so foolish as to remove the cap on the top of the sphere - surely not!!! More frightening would be removing the sphere without releasing pressure, but who knows what might have been done. I would love to have been a fly on the wall for what actually happened - I hope the mechanic had a change of underwear

    Peter, Yes, replace accumulator sphere, throw the 'O' ring that the mechanic says he replaced and make sure you use appropriate LHM compatible seals. Did you get the roadworthy? I hope so after that...

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    1000+ Posts CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    Hi Chris,
    Thanks for the welcome & the help. Yep, it went through the roadworthy easily even though the guy obviously didn't know anything about Citroens. Does anyone in Brisbane or Sydney hold these spheres on the shelf / in stock.?
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

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    1000+ Posts CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    PS, I should have said, it was previously owned for a couple of years by Ian Norman past president of Cit Car Club of Vic, so has had a reasonable amount of TLC over the years by the look of things.
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    get rid of the mechanic while you're at it...

    Denton at European Autocare should sort you out for a sphere. Ask him how to change one too!

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CXVingtCinq View Post
    Hi Chris,
    Does anyone in Brisbane or Sydney hold these spheres on the shelf / in stock.?
    Quote Originally Posted by forumnoreason View Post
    get rid of the mechanic while you're at it...

    Denton at European Autocare should sort you out for a sphere. Ask him how to change one too!
    In Brisbane, DS Motors will have them on the shelf. Grab a few sphere 'O' rings and a range of pipe seals at the same time

    Don't be alarmed if the new sphere is silver, many of the replacements are. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    The genuine ones are silver now, but you can get non genuine ones that are green. I have a green one on the Xantia. I'd say DS motors is your best bet as they are closer to you. Jason Hantos supplied the replacement for the Xantia and if you need any work done while you are ever in Sydney I would recommend him. He loves working on CXs
    Mine

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    1000+ Posts CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    Many thanks to you all. I'll call DS Motors first thing Tuesday morning and see if he can post or freight one here with a couple of seals.
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    WHEN YOU REPLACE THE SPHERE EVEN THOUGH IT HAS HAD ALL OF ITS GAS RELEASED, MAKE SURE THAT YOU UNDO THE BLEED SCREW ON THE SIDE OF THE REGULATOR . About 1 1/2 turns is enough. The can be pressure in the rest of the system and it is wise not to tempt fate! Have the car on ramps at the front and it is easier if you remove the under-tray. Over riders off first then the under-tray is easy. Sphere should screw off by hand, and refit only hand tight using a new o ring seal!
    Cheers Gerry

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    BVH Roger Wilkinson's Avatar
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    I think this mechanic might be a keeper. He has displayed admirable curiosity instead of running away. I would suggest you feed his curiosity by lending him manuals to read so he can increase his understanding of Citroen hydraulics.

    Roger

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    Please read this (if you haven't already) first. Remembering that crepes are a French invention and you do not want to end up like one.

    Hydraulic Citroen Safety - also applies in part to other cars
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    definitely replace not regas. there is a sharp edge on the back of the filler plug. Given you pressurised the system with no gas in the accumulator you will have pushed the diaphragm up hard against this.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
    'Cit' homepage:
    Citroen Workshop
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    '92 Range Rover Classic ... 5spd manual.

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    Fellow Frogger
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    Shane makes a fair point and it is a critical safety item so not worth mucking about. A working handbrake is also an essential item! It's a standard 62 Bar accumulator as used on everything from a GS to Xantia/XM. In addition to DS Motors in Brisbane, Roger Parker in Adelaide (Oleopneumatics.com.au) sells the aftermarket items for a reasonable cost as do others like Dapco-AutoFrance and so on. You can still buy them from Citroen and a good option is the multi-membrane type of accumulator used on the last of the Xantia models, which was painted grey. Citroen dealers can find them, but they cost a bit. In NSW, the only current dealer likely to have any knowledge of the CX (and probably the Xantia too) is Continental Cars.

    If you plan to keep using that mechanic, suggest he (or you) might like to download the relevant manual in pdf format from here:
    https://sites.google.com/site/citroenpublicationslist/
    He may even want to ask questions here.

    Did the car come with any spare flywheel pickups? These are a common reason for failing to proceed. There are two of them and they are the same, but one has a spacer plate that must be fitted or the pickup will be destroyed.

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    1000+ Posts CXVingtCinq's Avatar
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    OK, firstly thanks to all who have contributed to my education so far and with help getting me out of the mire. Rest assured I am only looking at a new sphere and not trying to re-gas the old one.
    As a complete newby I have a few questions - 1, Where is the regulator so I can release the bleed screw on the side.? 2, I'm not totally sure now that it is the main accumulator as it is not under the car as Gerry indicates. Just to make sure we are all on the same page, it is the one in the engine bay right above the pressure pump - (see image). No gas in main accumulator on CX.-sphere-engine-bay.jpg
    It's right out in the open which is why the mechanic had a play with it. And yes Roger I am not striking him off the list as never to be used again as it is hard to find someone reliable in a country town and to date over about 10 years he has been pretty good.

    I have a Haynes workshop manual but it seems it may be for the UK vehicles with only 6 spheres.? The diagrams are a little hard to follow and although it shows the bleed screw on the pressure regulator I cannot see from the diagram where it might be in the engine bay. I'll have a closer look in the morning when I can see better but some tips on where to look would be greatly appreciated.
    Yep, I have already read your safety tips Craig. Very good advice. I do like crepes, but as a meal not "to die for".
    What is a flywheel pickup David.? No spare parts came with it except a few fuses, two ignition sensors and a litre bottle of LHM.
    Cheers, Peter J
    Current - 1974 D Special
    : 1976 16TS
    Previous - 1984 CX 25 IE : 1976 16TS : 1979 12 Virage

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    1000+ Posts forumnoreason's Avatar
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    the regulator should be stuck to the accumulator?? : ) like a D?

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    UFO
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    Peter,

    The main accumulator sphere on your car (actually all of them) is attached to the regulator. Therefore under that sphere in the right (facing) side of the engine bay is the regulator. There is a 12mm headed bolt that is the bleed screw. Only ever loosen up to 1/2 a turn - never fully or you'll have a spring%$#@it moment as the retained ball shoots into oblivion.

    Attached to the reg will be a metal pressure input line from the pump, metal pressure output lines to systems and a rubber return line to the LHM tank. Plus about eleventy years of accumulated gunge.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Quote Originally Posted by gerrypro View Post
    WHEN YOU REPLACE THE SPHERE EVEN THOUGH IT HAS HAD ALL OF ITS GAS RELEASED, MAKE SURE THAT YOU UNDO THE BLEED SCREW ON THE SIDE OF THE REGULATOR . About 1 1/2 turns is enough. The can be pressure in the rest of the system and it is wise not to tempt fate! Have the car on ramps at the front and it is easier if you remove the under-tray. Over riders off first then the under-tray is easy. Sphere should screw off by hand, and refit only hand tight using a new o ring seal!
    What about height? Should Peter set the height control lever to the lowest setting, and wait for the car to settle onto it's bump stops before releasing the pressure? Should engine be running or not while doing this?

    Cheers

    Alec

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    UFO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armidillo View Post
    What about height? Should Peter set the height control lever to the lowest setting, and wait for the car to settle onto it's bump stops before releasing the pressure? Should engine be running or not while doing this?

    Cheers

    Alec
    Engine off

    Height to low, dab the brakes a few times to use any reserve pressure.

    Allow car to settle

    Open bleed screw a little.
    Craig K
    2009 C5 HDi Exclusive

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    The damaged sphere is of course a front suspension sphere (when you order your replacement) - I've never, ever, ever seen one damaged in that way, lucky your mechanic still has his head!!

    Front suspension must be hard as a rock so definitely no driving until you have replaced that sphere. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
    08 C5 X7 HDi very Noir



    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

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    Fellow Frogger
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenBlood View Post
    The damaged sphere is of course a front suspension sphere (when you order your replacement) - I've never, ever, ever seen one damaged in that way, lucky your mechanic still has his head!!

    Front suspension must be hard as a rock so definitely no driving until you have replaced that sphere. . .

    Cheers
    Chris
    The photo had me confused too, but it is the accumulator. This is a picture of another CX EFI and shows the layout more clearly. You can see the regulator under the accumulator. It may have another one down in the bottom left corner of the engine bay. The C-matic had a third accumulator mounted on the LH front suspension tower frame in the engine bay. Those had different purposes, but the main accumulator sphere is the most critical one and that seems to be the one that has been discharged. If it's flat and the only one in the circuit, then you have no reserve and rely almost entirely on the pump working. It may uise the rear suspension for the rear brakes, but the accumulator needs to be good.

    I'd guess the ignition sensors mentioned are the pickups I mentioned. Small black cylinders with a socket for 2 wires at an angle and a small metal mounting plate?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails No gas in main accumulator on CX.-cxefi.jpg  

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    Administrator GreenBlood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David S View Post
    The photo had me confused too, but it is the accumulator. This is a picture of another CX EFI and shows the layout more clearly. You can see the regulator under the accumulator. It may have another one down in the bottom left corner of the engine bay. The C-matic had a third accumulator mounted on the LH front suspension tower frame in the engine bay. Those had different purposes, but the main accumulator sphere is the most critical one and that seems to be the one that has been discharged. If it's flat and the only one in the circuit, then you have no reserve and rely almost entirely on the pump working. It may uise the rear suspension for the rear brakes, but the accumulator needs to be good.

    I'd guess the ignition sensors mentioned are the pickups I mentioned. Small black cylinders with a socket for 2 wires at an angle and a small metal mounting plate?
    Oooops, Yes I can see now, the spare tyre should have been the giveaway as to the location in Peter's photo

    Peter ignore my previous post, yes you do need an accumulator sphere

    Cheers
    Chris
    74 D(very Special) >>Rejuvenation Thread<<
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    "Déesse" Roland Barthes, 'Mythologies', 1957

    The Déesse has all the characteristics of one of those objects fallen from another universe that fed the mania for novelty in the eighteenth century and a similar mania expressed by modern science fiction: the Déesse is first and foremost the new Nautilus.

    (Umberto Eco [Ed], The History of Beauty, Rizzoli, NY, 2004)

  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger
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    Yes, this is an auto CX. Earlier manual and c-matic versions had the regulator down on the gearbox case pointing downwards with the accumulator exposed underneath. On those cars, you'd want to remove the undertray for access.

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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    That is a much better place for the accumulator!
    Cheers Gerry

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