Citroen CX injection query
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  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Default Citroen CX injection query

    Finally got tthe CX Familiale "Pascale" registered and road legal for Oz. Friday morning drove 120km and end up back in town. Parked the car in a loading zone while the wife posted a parcel. When it was time to leave the car would not start! Had both rangers wave fingers at me over being in the loading zone but they were understanding!

    Had RAC out and they stopped the auto sparkie who was driving past. He found there was no pulse at the injector so we suspect the TDC sensor is the culprit.
    The sensor is on top of the bell housing between and below the alternator and hydraulic pump drive shaft.
    Citroen CX injection query-sensorlocate.jpg
    Citroen CX injection query-sensorclose.jpgclose up of sensor
    The attached picture shows the connector with shielded cable from sensor - it has three blades. It is beneath the spare wheel. Can someone confirm that this is in fact the TDC sensor please!

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Citroen CX injection query-sensorconnect.jpg  
    Last edited by rmac; 25th May 2015 at 01:00 PM. Reason: clarify and expand
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    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    That doesn't look like a CX flywheel sensor. Pop the dizzie cap off and see if it has a toothed wheel in it ... If it does, you need to find and test the ignition module that will be there somewhere.

    seeya,
    Shane L.
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    1000+ Posts gerrypro's Avatar
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    Shane will tell you no doubt that is always wise to carry a spare sensor on board as they are known to fail without warning!
    Sure that senses TDC but my carby CX has one just like it and it is used as part of the diagnostic loom to be hooked up to an engine analyser.
    According to what I can make of the manual's description the injector pulse is triggered by a magnetic pulse from the distributer.
    Page 9 Op MA.IE 144-00
    Last edited by gerrypro; 25th May 2015 at 01:35 PM.
    Cheers Gerry

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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    That is a Ducellier distributor so first culprit to check is the coil inside. Easy to measure continuity. In both my CXs that coil went open circuit. It might be OK when cold and just go OC when it gets hot. Borrow the wife's hair dryer to test. The other possibility for a failure is the switching module under the ignition coil. CX Basis has them in stock, a must have spare for a 2400ie. It is the same module as used in Peugeot 505.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    What a pain Ross. Lucky not at North Cape......

    Good luck. I gave one of those distributors to Bob Senn years ago. Now I have 123 and much the better for it.
    JohnW

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    Fellow Frogger! Balki's Avatar
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    if you have a 2400 ie the the injection is triggered from the distributor as i removed this sensor from the car i had and still drove it around, l-jetronic is always driven by the distributor hence the need to have your ignition timing spot on

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    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    The timing doesn't seem to have been an issue - so far. I have had problems over two days last year on the trip across England and then crossing Denmark. At the time I put it down to fuel contamination initially, then a intermittent wiring issue.

    On Friday there was spark and when some "Start ya bastard" was sprayed in the intake the car actually fired and ran momentarily. An auto electrician was passing and he checked the injector input and found there was no pulse! Hence the assumption that the sensor generating voltage from flywheel revolutions was the culprit.

    Looking over the car again this morning I found thisCitroen CX injection query-pic_0525_022.jpgwhich cleaned up to this
    Citroen CX injection query-pic_0525_025.jpg the part is Bosch and from the pic has 0 280 159 001 which is listed as a Resistor unit

    Tomorrow I'll clean it up more and get the auto electrician to check it over. It has a very liberal dose of LHM, grease and grime through it. I've no idea where it should be located as it is just hanging on its four wires in the cavity below the LHM reservoir!
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    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    I've been too busy to get back to the car but next week I'll take up residence at the auto sparkies! The distributor will be our starting point. Does anyone have any idea if the ignition module inside the distributor is available in Australia please? Is it a "standard" Bosch part? I've not got access to the car until Monday so can't even look for a part number. The engine is a transplant from a deceased Prestige if that helps. Or am I going to have to try to get one from CX-Basis?
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    It's not a Bosch part. It is a Ducellier. The 'amplifier' module under the coil is available from CX Basis. As I said first thing to check is that coil in the distributor. Take a multimeter and something to gently heat it like a hair dryer. Measure continuity from the plug you pull off the amplifier module and then heat and cool to see if it goes open circuit at different temperatures.

    If the coil is found to be open circuit you can get the engine to run quite well with a points distributor from a carby CX. CX Basis don't stock one for the 2400ie so you can go with retrofit electronic systems like Lumenition assuming the advance system is not too worn. Or go the whole hog and get a 123 conversion like I have. Expect little change from $1,000 if going that route
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    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info Greg. I assumed that as the rest of the fuel injection stuff is Bosch that probably would be also. Will have to identify the 'amplifier' under the coil. The car has a large double 'block' type coil with large audio plug style connectors.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    Thanks for the info Greg. I assumed that as the rest of the fuel injection stuff is Bosch that probably would be also. Will have to identify the 'amplifier' under the coil. The car has a large double 'block' type coil with large audio plug style connectors.
    Hi Ross,

    This is one I can't begin to comment on! My cars are either "proper carburettors" or "really modern". The former I can fix or find clear help for and the latter never seem to go wrong. Yours is bang in the middle, in the technology era that I missed completely.

    As I said, best of luck and I'll be fascinated to hear the answers when you have them!
    JohnW

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    Fellow Frogger! John P's Avatar
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    Hello Ross.
    You, like Greg and me, drew the short straw with the 2400ie in that the electronic distributor was only produced for about 18 months or so before the all-electronic 2500ie came along. Therefore spares are few. Nevertheless I've just checked CX Basis and they do list a replacement triggering coil and lead for inside the Ducellier distributor. It is their catalogue number ZU-17117. They also list the module, located under the coil which is in turn under the throttle body. Don't be afraid to ask CX Basis for stuff that is not listed. I bought the same triggering coil and lead for my SEV-Marchal unit along with a spare distributor cap, neither of which were listed. The rarity of those bits is why Greg is right when he says they are must-haves on your shelf.
    BTW, having just wrangled my engine/transmission out to change the rear main seal, we discovered that the sensor you photographed and asked about is connected solely to the diagnostic socket and has no other role. It was found to be open circuit but did not affect the car's running at all. Peculiar. I hope that once this latest drama is resolved you will be able to enjoy the familiale as one of the most comfortable and safe off- freeway fast touring vehicles ever.
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    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Thanks Shane, Greg and John, I now have a better idea of what I need. I've emailed both 123ignition conversions (they do the CX version) and CX-basis regarding parts. In the morning I'll be able to get to the car and actually look and check the items mentioned.

    As I want to keep the car longer term I'll have to set myself up with a stock of parts.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac View Post
    Thanks Shane, Greg and John, I now have a better idea of what I need. I've emailed both 123ignition conversions (they do the CX version) and CX-basis regarding parts. In the morning I'll be able to get to the car and actually look and check the items mentioned.

    As I want to keep the car longer term I'll have to set myself up with a stock of parts.
    Mine is running a 123 Ross and going well with it. My CX is a carbie version of course.

    Good luck with it.
    JohnW

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    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
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    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Hunting around for an ECU I came across this part, Bosch 0 280 000 158, said to be from a Zantia 2000. The number matches the ecu on my CX? Surely the Xantia didn't use the same injection set up as the CX?!??!?
    Last edited by rmac; 8th June 2015 at 08:25 PM. Reason: wrong number
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    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    Absolutely not!! Although I wonder what the improvement would be with a system like the Xantia. The 2400ie has low impedance injectors and needs resistance between the output transistors of the ECU and the injectors to limit current flow. I am surprised the Xantia has resistors in the injection feed, but at least resistors have largely been the same for a long time.
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  17. #17
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Well! To summarise where we are up to:
    spark to plugs OK
    relays all test OK for continuity
    no visible loose wires/connections
    NO pulse to injectors
    fuel to filter - tank over half full
    emailed CX-Basis twice re coil in distributor and amplifier under main coil NO RESPONSE

    Citroen CX injection query-pic_0615_017.jpg

    This is the interior of the distributor. The coil I refer to is the small black box with the yellow line across it. It has two wires coming from it, into a black plastic connection block before a single wire exits the distributor. This joins or becomes what appears to be part of the loom. The single wire seems to become several wires. Presumably this provides the pulse to trigger the amplifier under the coil and thence the spark to the plugs. As we have a spark can we safely assume that the distributor based coil is OK?

    If this coil is OK and the amplifier is sending a spark to the plugs (via the distributor) what could/would be causing there to be no pulse at the injectors? Everyone I've spoken to tells me it is rarely the ECU. We have opened this and visually checked for any obvious sign of damage/deterioration. It looks OK.

    My Wagenwacht serviceman, currently holidaying in Spain, tells me that the amplifier module is found in Renault 18s among others. The part number comes up with this entry is anyone needs it:
    18 759 90, 83 093 1, Opel ignition module - Fiat parts,GM Parts,Peugeot parts,Renault parts - Wenzhou Auto parts-OPS

    There seems to be a number of web sites listing this component.
    Genuine Parts - Auto parts manufacturer, supply Genuine auto parts - Wenzhou Auto parts-OPS look to the bottom where it gives Peugeot/Citroen part numbers for this amplifier.
    Application / Suitable:
    GM
    1275990/830931
    Bosch
    022 710 0029

    Lucas
    DAB125
    Peugeot
    592789
    5927.89

    Renault
    7701021955
    Valeo
    245515/2595003
    IVECO
    4419 628

    OPEL
    18 759 90
    83 093 1
    Fiat/Lancia
    4419628
    82369531



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  18. #18
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    If you are getting a spark the amplifier unit is OK. Also the coil is OK (that is the same as both my 2400ie motors had). There are two wires that feed the ECU and they piggyback the leads from the amplifier, i.e. they are connected across the low tension of the distributor. When you say you have spark at the plugs I presume you have seen a nice fat spark across a removed spark plug. If that is the case we can virtually rule out ignition problems. The only other issue could be timing but the engine used to run and then stopped I think, and even if out should illicit some sign of life. I presume there is none when the engine is cranked over.

    So we move over to the injection. As you have the ECU out of the car, and I'll bet you are already doing this, it would be good to check continuity between the plug and all the components in the engine. The first suspect I would look for is the resistor bank feeding the injectors. The fact that you have that rogue component there, ex Xantia indicates there may have been issues there before. There is a fair bit of work there so I'll leave it there.

    However, even if there is no pulse to the injectors we should get some life from the engine because of the cold start injector. If the engine just cranks and gives no sign of life, what about fuel pressure, or the fuel pump. This could be linked to the big relay in front of the battery that controls power to the pump and is a known point of failure. This double relay also provides the power to the ECU through the resistor block. It should be bolted to the steel plate in front of the battery. I presume you have the workshop manual to guide you
    Last edited by Greg C; 15th June 2015 at 07:22 PM. Reason: more info
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  19. #19
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    It is so complicated that it smells like something simple. Are there ANY single wires that feed power anywhere in the injector circuit ahead of whatever distributes squirt to each cylinder and that could have broken inside the insulation?

    It sounds as if it doesn't matter now as you seem to have spark, but I think that is the same as the dizzie that I gave Bob Senn sometime.

    Is Mr Wagenwacht actually SKP?

    Anyway best of luck. Plenty of us watching and wondering...
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
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  20. #20
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Mr Wagenwacht is Yuri of the Royal Dutch Automobile Club roadside assistance crew - he and Henk (with a Wagenwacht patrol van) accompanied the 17 CXs participating on the Raid Arctique last year.
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    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    I'll bet it didn't miss a beat when they were close.
    JohnW

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    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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    Fellow Frogger! kimmo's Avatar
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    I don't know if this is complete nonsense but a local mechanic told I could use a distributor from a carbi CX?!
    I have got one 2400i distributor gone wrong but luckily had a replacement so haven't had to try a point distributor yet.
    C5 Touring 2008, CX 2400ie Prestige '81 (with dead gerbox), CX 2400 Pallas C-Matic '80, CX2400 Super Familiale C-Matic '79 (to be scrapped very soon) , CX2400i Familiale 5-spd (to be scrapped), GS 1220 Wagon '78 (next project), ID19 '64
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  23. #23
    1000+ Posts Greg C's Avatar
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    You can, my Prestige is running with one at present. Doesn't sound like the distributor is the culprit in this situation though.
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  24. #24
    Fellow Frogger! rmac's Avatar
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    Apart from arriving in Kiruna with the waterpump seal leaking - which
    they'd replaced before we went to lunch - we went the rest of the way
    without incident after leaving Kiruna. We did have this no start issue
    after lunch and Yuri and Henk wiggled and jiggled and checked that
    everything was seated correctly and the car started.

    One of the sponsors of Raid Arctique was the Garage Hydraulique in the Netherlands.
    Yuri suggested I contact them which I did. Leontien responded with a
    step by step checklist of items that may be the cause of my problem.

    Tomorrow I'll get back to the sparkies and will start to work through
    the list. Garage Hydraulique also tell me they can source the parts
    needed for the 2400ie fuel injection system.

    After ten days I had a response from CX-Basis informing me they only had the amplifier that is under the coil.

    I've asked Garage Hydraulique for a list of items for the fuel injection
    with their prices as I plan to get a stash of bits to address any
    further issues with the fuel injection system. If any other owners of a
    CX2400ie want to get parts please let me know by email or PM
    Current Cars
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    1981 Citroen CX 2400ie Super Familiale C-matic - Raid Arctique 2014
    1991 Mazda E2200
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  25. #25
    Too many posts! JohnW's Avatar
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    Sounds like we have a new parts supplier....

    I hate this sort of problem! Good luck. I don't want or need anything but thanks for the kind offer.

    Cheers
    JohnW

    Renault 4CV 1950 (R1062)
    Renault R8 1965 (R1130)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2005 (wife's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2006 (daughter's)
    Renault Scenic Series II 2007 (mine)

    CitroŽn CX Pallas 1980 (moved on to new custodian)

    National Co-ordinator, Renault 4CV Register of Australia

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