DS Starting Problems
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Thread: DS Starting Problems

  1. #1
    Fellow Frogger! Errol_S's Avatar
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    Default DS Starting Problems

    Greetings

    I am experiencing a strange problem with starting on my Pallas that I am hoping someone can assist with.

    When cold the starter will always spin the engine with ease, however when hot it occasionally struggles to turn the motor. A new 60A battery was fitted but this did not resolve the issue. Voltage drop over the standard lead to the starter was suspected, so I replaced the lead and at the same time had the starter checked. All was given the "thumbs up". I also fitted another earth to the body, in addition to the standard one to the water pump, just in case. This must have the problem resolved, or so I thought. You can imagine my disappointment this past weekend when the symptom manifested itself again.

    Any ideas? I have had a suggestion about fitting a relay but I do not understand enough about electronics to know how that would help.

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    Regards
    Errol

  2. #2
    Real cars have hydraulics DoubleChevron's Avatar
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    usually they spin faster when hot. It doens't have a winding fault in the starter that's only apparent when hot does it ?
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    Fellow Frogger! Balki's Avatar
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    it is possible that its to advanced in the igntion and trying to run backwards while on the starter, i would check timing but first check the mechanical advance isnt loose and making the timing jump around

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    Fellow Frogger! Errol_S's Avatar
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    Over the past 25 years I have learned that "anything is possible" when it comes to Citroen, but as the auto electricians gave the starter motor the thumbs up I would like to think there is no winding error.

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    Fellow Frogger! Lasya's Avatar
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    Mine has just started that too... It almost stops, like something is stopping it turn over, both cold and hot though. I've just had the lead off, so will check that tomorrow first but will follow this post with interest.
    Gillian and Chris

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  6. #6
    Member Pommiefrog's Avatar
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    Does your D have the starter solenoid connected on top of the positive side of the battery? Sometimes an intermittent starting problem can be because the daisy wheel in the starter solenoid is worn, you can check by removing the earthing strap from the solenoid to the engine and taking a look at the condition of the daisy wheel.

    It's easy to spot an issue as it will have missing teeth...
    Regards,

    George
    Leicestershire, England
    1971 DS21 EFI, Pallas, BVH, Blog:http://www.mypallas.net

  7. #7
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Might be the earth lead on the battery. If its still got the lead terminal, check it's crimping the wire tight and that the clamp effect is still just that (clamping the battery post hard).
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
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    1000+ Posts Ken W's Avatar
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    Sounds like timing to me. Retard the ignition a bit to fix. You will find this is putting a huge strain on the starter. I have even seen the flex going to the starter brushes fuse due to the extra current drain required to work against a piston that is trying to reverse its direction.

    Ken W

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    Fellow Frogger! Errol_S's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the suggestions. I have checked the timing with electronic equipment and that is 100%. The earth lead appears sound but I will remove that and verify. The starter engages without a problem but struggles to turn the motor - just as if the battery was flat, or the timing was incorrect. In my case this only occurs after a fairly long trip, not with cold starting, as is happening to Chris.

    Errol

  10. #10
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    When it's hot, if you crank it over by touching the solenoid lead onto the battery positive terminal does it spin up ok or does it struggle? If it struggles then I'd suspect some type of contact resistance problem in the starter which is occurring when its hot. If its ok then the ignition switch or wiring to it is suspect when hot.
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balki View Post
    it is possible that its to advanced in the igntion and trying to run backwards while on the starter, i would check timing but first check the mechanical advance isnt loose and making the timing jump around
    Hi this is a guess but worth checking as it suits the symptoms. Sounds like too much advance to start when hot !
    Actually the advance may be not loose as said above but very tight and gummy on the shaft. I have come across this on an old motor. The advance mechanism was gummed up on the spindle where the cam rotates to advance. The old lube had gone hard and while it seemed to settle back to no advance when cold it took a while to get advanced as you drove and stayed there sometimes. A spray with WD showed it up and a good dismantle and clean and lube fixed it.
    Jaahn

  12. #12
    Now go make me a sandwich Hotrodelectric's Avatar
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    Guys, the explanation is likely a lot easier. It's much more commonly heat soak combined with a worn motor. Big-block (454 c.i.) Chevrolets share this problem.

    Think about it: heat expands metal parts. It doesn't have to be by a lot. But if worn, they no longer fit together properly. And despite the heat shield (or, much more telling, if yours is missing), that starter lives just below the warmest source on the car. The rotor sticks because of the heat application. Cool it down, and everything seems copacetic.

    Unfortunately, the only real fix is pull the starter and do at least a minimal rebuild- brushes, bushings and a thorough cleaning. I know that pulling the starter is a PITA, but that's the only way to go.

    You can try tapping on the starter until then with a small hammer to try and loosen it up from hot, but I really don't recommend that. Too much chance of injuring yourself (take it from me- burns hurt like hell), and a swing and a miss easily damages something else.

    I'm NOT saying don't do the ignition or start circuit checks. I'm just tossing in my 2 cents, thinking heat soak+wear is your actual problem.
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  13. #13
    Member wilrex's Avatar
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    Maybe try hand cranking when it is cold and take note of the effort needed.
    Then crank it when hot and note if it is harder to turn over.
    Could be that cylinders are dry when hot, a little upper-cylinder lubrication will fix it.

    Rex B
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  14. #14
    Fellow Frogger! Errol_S's Avatar
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    I have read the responses with interest. Thank you all.

    The solenoid is above the starter motor, both of which were overhauled a few months ago. The distributor was also overhauled and an electronic ignition fitted. Unfortunately it is a 5 speed so I cannot try the crank suggestion.
    I will however try Marc's suggestion of starting with a direct lead from the battery.
    Someone local suggested fitting a starter relay between the ignition and solenoid. Has anyone had experience of this?

    Regards

  15. #15
    Fellow Frogger! marc61's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Errol_S View Post
    I have read the responses with interest. Thank you all.

    The solenoid is above the starter motor, both of which were overhauled a few months ago. The distributor was also overhauled and an electronic ignition fitted. Unfortunately it is a 5 speed so I cannot try the crank suggestion.
    I will however try Marc's suggestion of starting with a direct lead from the battery.
    Someone local suggested fitting a starter relay between the ignition and solenoid. Has anyone had experience of this?

    Regards
    Yes the relay is the way to go if it's an ignition switch or wiring issue. The feed wire to the starter solenoid has a male/female connection right next to the battery, so it's a case of pulling that apart and wiring a relay in. The ignition switch then will just switch the relay (low current) and the relay will switch a new 12V feed from positive battery terminal to the wire going to the solenoid. Failing that you could just fit a simple starter switch to press to send power down the wire to the solenoid, which is what I did a long time ago - indeed so long ago I've forgotten why, but it works every time!
    Cheers, Marc.

    1987 CX GTi T2 Maikonics
    1972 SM 2.7 carb
    1972 DS21 EFI

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